Matt Jacob: The Journey from High Altitudes to High Art

On this episode of Unglossy Matt Jacob, a private jet pilot turned photographer, joins the guys to share compelling stories from his life in the skies and behind the camera lens.

Have you ever wondered what it's like to transition from flying private jets to capturing powerful images around the globe? Matt Jacob takes us through his extraordinary journey, detailing his passion for technology and photography. He recounts the emotional story behind his photograph "Girl in Green," and talks about the enriching experiences of photographing in diverse regions like India and Africa. We'll also discuss the unique lighting conditions that make certain locations a haven for photographers and how cultural differences impact both aviation and photography.

Thinking of taking your creative work to social media or starting a podcast? Matt offers invaluable tips on maintaining high audio quality and the art of engaging conversations. We wrap up with insights into adapting photography for social media, building trust with models, and the joys and challenges of podcasting. Plus, Matt reveals his dream podcast guest, Sam Harris, and why meaningful connections are the lifeblood of any creative endeavor. This episode is packed with inspiration and practical advice for photographers, podcasters, and anyone looking to elevate their creative game.

"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Creative and hosted by Merrick Chief Creative Officer, Tom Frank, hip hop artist and founder of Pendulum Ink, Mickey Factz, and music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/

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Transcript

Tom: 0:00

This week on Unglassy.

Matt: 0:02

It was the need for conversation. I felt, you know, I really started reaching out to other photographers in COVID because, you know, we're all a lot of us were under lockdown and I was wanting to. I was wanting to kind of connect with the photography community out there.

Tom: 0:19

From the top. Yeah, I'm Tom Frank.

Mickey: 0:23

I'm Mickey Factz.

Jeffrey: 0:25

And I'm Jeffrey Sledge.

Tom: 0:26

Welcome to Unglossy, to Coney Brand and Culture. I'm Tom Frank, partner and Chief Creative Officer at Merrick Creative. This is Mickey Factz, hip-hop artist and founder and CEO of Pendulum Inc. And that is Jeffrey Sledge, a seasoned music industry veteran who has worked with some of the biggest artists in the business. We're here to explore the moments of vulnerability, pivotal decisions and creative sparks that fuel the relationship between brand and culture. Get ready for a thought-provoking journey into the heart and soul of branding the unscripted, unfiltered and truly unglossy truth.

Tom: 0:57

All right, I want to set the record straight right here and now. Jeffrey, does Mickey have a sandwich named after him, true or false? And if so, where and what in the world is it?

Jeffrey: 1:13

He definitely does have a sandwich named after him. That is true, we had it. He took me to the spot yesterday. I don't remember the name of the spot. It's off of anybody in the Atlanta area. It's off North Druid Hills, um, which is um, you know, it's a shade other than I guess it's a shade north of the city, but it's like right there. It's not like you got a guy of 10 miles out or something. This. It's really right there, of course, from a tesla dealership and um, the sandwich was banging. Actually it's a chicken sandwich. It has, uh uh, pasti bacon, which I had never had on it, onion Pastrami bacon.

Jeffrey: 1:50

It was really good though Onions.

Jeffrey: 1:55

I don't know what kind of. It wasn't mayonnaise or mustard, but it was like some type of spread on it. They give you a substantial amount of chicken, so it's not like a little cheap sandwich. It was dope, it was dope.

Tom: 2:09

And what is it called the?

Jeffrey: 2:10

Big Mick pause. The Big Mick, the Big Mick.

Tom: 2:15

And Mickey, this fits within your dietary restrictions.

Mickey: 2:19

Yeah, it's kosher.

Jeffrey: 2:21

All Jewish cats run the spot and own it. They were real cool. Yeah, it was dope. It was a good day. It was a good. Mick crushed his sandwich. He ate his shit in like two minutes. It took me a minute to finish mine because it was a lot, but it was really good though. It was really really good.

Tom: 2:44

I'm a little jealous. You guys went to lunch without me.

Jeffrey: 2:46

Yeah, next time you come down, we'll take you over there.

Mickey: 2:49

We called you All right, I called you All right guys.

Tom: 2:56

We definitely had a good conversation today.

Jeffrey: 2:58

Oh man, great conversation. Did we Great conversation? Matt? Yeah, matt Jacob, he was dope Photographer to the stars no photography, not to the stars, but he's a great photographer and he has a very interesting story and um he's, he basically kind of shifted from one successful career to another, um, form up, form up, and even to another. Yeah, he's a private.

Tom: 3:27

And you know what I loved about this guy. I love his work and I simply reached out to him and he replied we had never met and we got to sit down with this guy and have a great conversation about photography, about podcasting and piloting. That was the hidden gem.

Jeffrey: 3:50

Flying private jets around the world to the. It was dope, it was dope. I liked him a lot.

Tom: 3:55

Yeah, and two interesting things that came out of that One I have a similar love hate relationship with social media. You might be a little further on the hate side Right. Yeah, and number two, this is the whole podcasting experience. It was nice to relate to somebody else who was doing it for very similar reasons.

Jeffrey: 4:17

And figuring it out.

Mickey: 4:20

Yeah, and figuring it out. I think people are going to really love this episode. Yeah, me too.

Tom: 4:27

Here's the lingering issue that comes out of this for me Can the world ever just go back to watching all video at 16 by 9 horizontal? Can we force this to happen one day?

Jeffrey: 4:44

I don't think so.

Tom: 4:45

Not on, not on, not on phones why can't phones change one day, so to just so.

Mickey: 4:53

To jeffrey's point, I would say yes you say, we can go back yes, with this glasses you might be right, because I didn't.

Jeffrey: 5:07

I really didn't think about the, the glasses which are coming for sure pause, which are definitely on the way. So, yeah, I didn't think about that yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. That's the only way.

Mickey: 5:16

That's the only way because then it'll kind of feel like you know 3d where you can kind of look and see what's going on. If you got your Oculus it'll be more panoramic, but if you're just kind of walking around, your glasses can be that hard.

Jeffrey: 5:35

Yeah, they kind of have to be in glasses.

Mickey: 5:38

And I saw this guy. He said that in 10 years we will not have phones.

Jeffrey: 5:44

Everything will be through the glasses. So there's hope, there's hope is what you're saying Everything will go through the glasses in 10 years.

Mickey: 5:50

Everything is going to go through the glasses in about 10 years. Wow, and this is the same guy that said we would have phones in our hands soon. He said this like 20 years ago, so he knows that we will be wearing glasses, everybody's going to have glasses. When are we getting that guy on the podcast man? That guy, that guy I forgot who he works with. I think he works with Google or something. I would love to get him here. I have so many questions.

Mickey: 6:17

Nicky go get him, because you know you could take pictures just by blinking. Oh wow, I know that Apple. I know we're getting off topic, but I know Apple has this new technology with the phone where you can just look at the phone and kind of use your eyes as the mouse.

Jeffrey: 6:33

Wow.

Tom: 6:34

Yeah, all I got out of that was we have hope, there's hope for us all there's hope. There is hope, and a guy that has some hope in him is our guest today. Let's dive in with photographer, with podcaster and pilot.

Mickey: 6:52

Mr.

Tom: 6:52

Matt Jacob. Matt Jacob Unglossy is brought to you by Merrick Creative, looking to skyrocket your business's visibility and drive growth. At Merrick Creative, we solve your brand and marketing woes With big ideas, decades of experience and innovative solutions. All right, fellas, let me introduce you to a guy who I just kind of stumbled upon via Instagram. Right, I started following his account. I absolutely love the feel of his content. It's inspirational, it's educational. It made me curious to know more about the people and the stories behind every post. He's a cultural portrait photographer and host of the Mood Podcast. We might be able to get some tips here, guys. The Mood Podcast is all about the art of conversation, one frame at a time. Say hello to Matt Jacob.

Matt: 7:54

What's up, Matt? What's up? How's it going? Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for being here.

Tom: 8:00

Where in the world are you? You seem like you're a guy who's well-traveled. Where do you sit right now as we talk to you?

Matt: 8:06

I sit in my mom's house, which my mom's been kind of ill for the last six months, so I'm visiting her for the week. But I'm based out of Bali, indonesia. I've been in Southeast Asia for like the last 12, 13 years but yeah, I travel a lot. You know, my background as a pilot and as travel photographer kind of takes me to all over the place. So at this time I'm in the unglamorous south side of London, essentially.

Tom: 8:37

Unglamorous? I don't know about that, so I want you to introduce yourself. Did do you justice? I don't think I captured everything that you are I I think you flattered me completely.

Matt: 8:50

I don't um. You know when, when you ask people because I've you know obviously sit where you guys are sat as well we ask people to introduce themselves. It's it's often um you know, where do you start?

Matt: 9:00

it's like, you know, I'm a flawed human, trying to make my way through life and all the stumbling blocks it presents. But you know, I'm a flawed human trying to make my way through life and all the stumbling blocks it presents. But you know, I'm, um, uh, you know I'm multifaceted and master of nothing. Really, I'm kind of jack of all trades. I, I love photography. I do photography pretty much every day. It's it's my number one passion. Um, it's a selfish endeavor really. I just love, you know, making images, I love making art, I love trying to improve all the time.

Matt: 9:28

But my background, my, my adult background, is as a pilot. You know, I just kind of the. The vehicle that got me into photography was flying around the world, you know, completely privileged position and lucky enough to get paid to do something I loved and, um, you know, visited so many places I wanted to kind of document them and, being a guy that was into gadgets and technology, I picked up a camera and and kind of fell in love with it straight away and then, you know, learned over the years to to obviously hone that craft a little bit more and continue to learn and continue to evolve. So, um, and then the podcast thing kind of came up, you know, for the last few years, which is kind of my new, new love. I. I love seeing across from folks like yourself and you know, shooting the shit and and just talking, talking a lot of cool stuff and meeting some amazing people, and I always come away from that learning something every episode. I learn something. So kind of another selfish venture as well, but selfish, but true and and fun, right.

Tom: 10:27

I mean this is fun stuff. We get to talk to you. I mean this is, this is cool, okay. So I gotta ask you this you're a pilot which became a photographer. Did you ever combine the two? Do you do? Do you do shoots hanging out of a, out of a plane? I asked this for a very, very specific reason okay, well, I have been asked to do that.

Matt: 10:45

So, like my, my pilot world is in the private jet world. So I I fly for a specific individual and he, you know, obviously a rich, rich dude. So you know, we see some rich people coming on on on the jet and you know, I've had a few few people ask me sometimes, you know. You know, let's do a photo shoot of the jet. It's not really my thing. I'd rather be part of it than the guy behind the camera.

Jeffrey: 11:13

Yo hold on hold, on hold on. Before we move on to the photography thing.

Tom: 11:20

I was going to tell a story, jeffrey. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, all right, all right, I'm going to hear a story from my man, matt.

Jeffrey: 11:24

Sexy Matt. What's the wildest thing you've seen on the private jet? There we go no names, no names, no names the wildest thing you've seen on the jet. And I guess, combined with who again no names the richest person you've ever flown.

Tom: 11:42

Without giving the name.

Jeffrey: 11:46

Yeah, ever flown without giving the name.

Matt: 11:47

Yeah, that's difficult, so he can, so he can talk with you because nobody knows who he's talking about. Okay, well, the richest person I've flown is it's.

Jeffrey: 11:52

You would know him put it put it that way you know any anyone?

Matt: 11:55

on the street would know him. He's, you know, top 10 richest people in the world in terms of worth um and that's kind of.

Matt: 12:02

It's a weird. It's. Yeah, I just you know you forget they're just, they're just men, they're just women, or they're just people, they're just humans. It's like meeting one of your you know your biggest stars, in whatever sport or whatever music. Um, you know sector you're in it's. Uh, it is a little bit kind of starstruck, but uh, you know, they're just, they're just people and just they just want to get on with their. Uh, you know, they're just, they're just people and just they just want to get on with their day you know they treat private jets like we treat ubers, right.

Matt: 12:28

So they just want to get on and and go. So, yeah, yeah, we've flown some rich people um in terms of antics in terms of uh, you know, it doesn't happen as often as you guys would like put it that way. But, yeah, I've seen a couple of, you know, soft orgies I've seen Soft orgies is crazy.

Tom: 12:55

That took a twist.

Matt: 12:56

Yeah, those kind of things always involve alcohol and drugs, right? So you know, we don don't allow in most private jets, even though they're private, you know you, you're not allowed to smoke on board because it's just, it's just a safety thing, right? No one wants to die, but everything else kind of goes so, um, you know, people who've flown quite a lot of projects know that. So they know they're not going to be able to smoke weed, or it's probably, they probably can, but it's probably not a good idea or smoke any other type of drug. So they'll, you know, they'll find, they'll find other ways to do it yeah and especially in the us.

Matt: 13:35

Like you know, I don't want to um, the us is such a great place to fly because it's so free and if you havea private jet you don't have to go through security. You don't have to go through security, you don't have to go through. You know, you literally come out of your car straight onto the jet.

Tom: 13:49

It's just nothing.

Matt: 13:51

So you bring whatever you want, especially if you're flying domestic. So yeah, some trips I've had before like East Coast to West Coast and you know people go crazy People have fun.

Tom: 14:02

That's a little scary to me, at the same time that we allow anybody to put anything on a plane here in the US. Yep, yep, that's interesting.

Jeffrey: 14:09

I remember a music manager I will remain nameless. He had a massive artist and he told me they were doing shows it is a lot of shows in Russia, so these oligarchs or whatever will fly him over, you know private, and he said they'd pay him in cash. So they have like duffel bags of money and so they literally they fly over, they do the show, they get the duffel bags and just put the duffel bags on the plane, they wouldn't check in. You know, no money, no money claims, so no taxes, and they were kind of doing that flying back and forth, just bringing cash in and out of the country.

Tom: 14:48

Crazy. I have a feeling it might have been more than cash, maybe.

Jeffrey: 14:55

Maybe you got any stories like that, Matt, before we move on.

Matt: 14:59

Yeah, but I'm not going to Okay.

Matt: 15:01

Wow, if you have a private jet and it's and it's registered privately, like we have cars, you know you, you pay your fees, but you, you can pretty much do whatever you want on that jet, like you, you can just do whatever you want. Now, above that, you'd start if you, if you're going to rent a private jet. So if you don't own a private jet and you rent one, then it's a little bit trickier because it's you're under different laws and legislation. But if you, if you are rich enough to own your own private jet and you fly it, like in the us, under private rules, fucking do whatever you want. It's. It's so loose, yeah, it's scarily loose actually all right, jeffrey, can I tell my story?

Tom: 15:42

I want matt to relate to this. I want Matt to relate to this.

Jeffrey: 15:45

We just want to let Matt know this isn't a regular photography podcast. It's not a regular photography podcast, but here's how I'm going to get us there.

Tom: 15:52

All right, I got a photography story and an air travel story that combine right. So I got hired one time I'm not a photographer like you, matt, but I try to play one on TV so I got hired as a photographer and videographer to shoot a building in Times Square that you guys both know, the M&M building. I'm sure you've been there. So we rented a helicopter and we got all the rights approved to basically leave out of Brooklyn and take the helicopter right down to Times Square and record everything.

Tom: 16:23

What I didn't realize was A. I guess I should have thought of this. They removed all the doors from the helicopter. Then when I get in there, they're giving me a harness. I'm like, what's this harness for? They harness me up, then they harness my camera up and they say we assume you'll be standing out on the little helicopter thing. So I'm on one side, the videographer's on the other side and we are hanging out of this helicopter in time square right at dusk.

Tom: 16:51

So it's like that perfect time where the lights are starting to go up. There was one point where I felt like I could have reached out and you know the big H and M building I know you guys know that building. I felt like I could have just tapped it. That's. That's how crazy. And this helicopter guy was insane. He could get right down in there so that we got the most perfect shots. But one of the most amazing experiences ever to see New York by helicopter, literally hanging out of the side of the helicopter.

Matt: 17:19

And how many people get to do that.

Tom: 17:21

That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool where do we see?

Matt: 17:24

the photos. Let's, let's go and judge the photos.

Tom: 17:27

I'm gonna say now I'm gonna be honest with you, I was a little shaky up there because I got a little nervous. You know, I kept my hand kept going back and forth between holding both on the camera and then also like holding one on this, the little the side yeah, and wiping your ass because, yes, good point, all right.

Matt: 17:43

So I gotta ask you this where?

Tom: 17:50

where did the love of photography then come from? You're traveling all over the place. You're seeing some amazing things. I mean, most people just can't pick up a camera and and and fall in love with it, can they?

Matt: 18:32

yeah, they, absolutely they can. I mean, whether they fall in love with it or not. Is is like anything, whether we fall in love with anything we do right. But, um, anyone can pick up a camera, anyone can learn to learn to be a photographer. So, you know, that's kind of the beauty of it, but it's also a bit of a curse right now because of social media and you know, you know, everyone is a photographer because everyone's got an iphone, that's got a pretty good camera on it and can take some pretty cool photos. So, um, which is great, like, the more people have that have access to to a camera whether it's an iphone or or any other type of camera the better in in my opinion.

Matt: 19:08

But I just, I don't know, I I can't really explain it. I think my initial interest came from the technology that you know, being a, being a pilot, I love to push buttons, I love switches and just like gadgets and put, you know, boys with their toys and that's kind of like you know where kind of the digital cameras came in. It's like, oh, you know, this is something I can just push buttons with and play around with all day. But actually, once I started to kind of, um, you know, this is something I can just push buttons with and play around with all day. But actually once I started to kind of, you know, play around with it more and realize that you know, I can make some pretty cool stuff from this, that's when my interest in the artistic side of it kind of grew, evolved, and you know, then I got into the community and started learning, like with professionals and really understanding man, I'm really bad at this and I've got a like. There is there is a level between beginner and advanced. That's that is big right.

Matt: 20:00

It just just like anything, um, anything that's ubiquitous to people and that you can just pick up. It's like football. Anyone can go and play football, but whether you can be a really great footballers, you know, only the top one percent can maybe do that. So, um, that's always a pursuit and, uh, that's. I guess the real enjoyment of it is that process, trying to just get better and better all the time. So I think that is now my interest and that's now my curiosity with photography, how can I be a better artist? But initially it was. It was kind of flipped, it was more the oh, look at this cool thing. And you know I can buy the next camera and, you know, buy a new lens and there's, you know, there's endless things. You can buy equipment wise as a photographer which was, I think, as a young man, was my initial kind of interest in it what is your crown jewel photograph photo that you've taken in your opinion um, I was asked this the other day.

Matt: 20:54

Actually I don't have one, but my audience does like there's a, there's a photo court that I named girl in green and it was one of my earlier kind of, I guess, more respected photos, probably about um six or seven years ago now and I was in uganda on a on Uganda on a holiday, just traveling. You just put a bag on my back and a camera, went traveling, and this is when I still really felt like I was learning photography and this six-year-old Ugandan girl just took my fancy. She was absolutely gorgeous, really cute, cute, and didn't speak any english, but there was, there was definitely a connection, and this was amongst, you know, 50 young ugandans in the, in the very rural village, and of course, I'm the only white western guy, for, you know, probably a thousand miles, let alone a hundred, few hundred miles. So I was kind of like famous, I was getting all the attention and you know, it was such a beautiful experience and uh, and so I started taking photos of people as, as they trusted me a little bit more and they enjoyed the experience because it was new to them, they'd never seen a camera before and I was showing them the photos and it's just all. You know, uh, a lovely, sad but lovely experience.

Matt: 22:13

And there's this one girl that that just um, she just she just just came through the lens like I've never seen anything before and she, she was holding a green, big kind of fig leaf, um, that she was playing around in the yard with with her friends and she was wearing a ripped, uh, green dress. That was kind of the only thing she owned or family owned for, you know, completely shredded and um, you know get I get emotional thinking about it now because she was so sweet and they're so happy and I took that photo after a day of kind of spending with them and, um, I I loved it, it was, it was nice, I loved it so much, I got it tattooed on my arm much, I got it tattooed on my arm, oh, wow, but uh, it was, it was the one photo, that kind of um, that had some success in terms of an audience feedback, right, so there was some kind of. There was the first time I felt like are people enjoying my photography? So that photo always, always um, resonates with me and always it's definitely not my best photo ever, for sure, but it's.

Matt: 23:16

It means a lot and and definitely my audience. You know they always come back to it whenever I post it or share it or print it. There's always a lot, of, a lot of love for it because there's a story with it as well. I mean, it looks beautiful, she's, she's amazing and um, you know, there's there's, there's a nice story behind it.

Jeffrey: 23:34

A sad's a sad, but but sweet one Is there is there, somewhere that you in the world that you've shot, that's like this is the perfect place to shoot, like I don't know a country or Pacific region of a country where it's like everything I shoot here is perfect, is it? You know? I know you live in the far East. Now Is it there? Is it Africa? Where is it? That kind of you go and like, okay, this is the perfect place to shoot, or not. Maybe I don't know.

Matt: 24:02

Yeah, I think of two, well, quite a few African countries, because the texture and the people in many African countries certainly sub-Saharan countries that I've been to, are just incredible and they love the experience of photography, they love the experience of meeting foreigners and what is so welcoming and it's just the whole. It just makes being a portrait photographer quite easy. And then you have, you know, generally like good weather and good landscapes and just general beauty that you can photograph. But the other country that comes to mind is india. Now, india, um, again, like you, photography is about light, generally about light, and in india you're pretty much guaranteed most days really, really soft, like hazy, light and clear weather. So you're getting these incredible sunrises, incredible sunsets and you have time to just, you know, enjoy those moments and and you don't have to worry.

Matt: 25:03

At most places you go to you have to worry about the weather. If you're shooting outside you've got to think about the weather and you know perfect times of day to get the good light, and then you've got clouds and rain and what's on the forecast and then you're having to. You know it's just an extra stressor that you have to deal with. In India you rarely have that difficulty, so you can like forget about the weather, because you're guaranteed to have like good light for the morning and evening. So yeah, I'd say India is kind of the front runner in that respect.

Tom: 25:30

Okay, when did this passion for photography become a career?

Matt: 25:38

I mean, I'm still working on that. I guess I still do some flying. I'd say 80% of my time is spent doing photography or podcast related stuff. Right, but say, since covid I think covid really, like it did with many people, really just you know, put a, put a complete spin on everything. You know, what am I doing with my life? Do I? Is this something I really want to do? Um, in terms of I was full-time pilot and then I'd say 80 piloting, 20 photography, and then know, I realized that actually is not what I want to do.

Matt: 26:16

I don't want to be. I want to have my own creative journey. I want to. I want to do my own thing. I want to be my own boss. I want to. I want to invest way more time in in photography and art, because that's the only way I'm going to get better at it. So, yeah, I'd say kind of 20, 2021, 2022 to really like go go all in on it.

Mickey: 26:37

I'm a, I want to kind of shift back to flying real quick. So, being a pilot and we always hear this quote flying is safer than driving One do you agree that flying is safer than driving? And if you do agree, is it because there are not other planes kind of running into you and that's the reason why driving is not so safe?

Matt: 27:07

It's a million times safer than driving. I mean it does.

Matt: 27:12

I mean, I'm just that's probably not an actual statistic, but it's much, much safer than driving, I mean statistically speaking, in terms of accidents and deaths. You know, you just have to Google that and you'll see it. But I'll tell you why, Although I'll add a caveat into that it depends which airline you fly with, because, just like everything in life, there's budget stuff and then there's premium stuff, right, and everything in between. You'll get a better, you'll get a more qualified experience pilot. You'll get a. You'll get a better maintained aircraft. You'll get a more qualified, experienced pilot. You'll get a better maintained aircraft. You'll get a better organizational structured system if you go with your premium airlines. That's just a fact. If you go low cost, you're just taking a minute extra risk, but it is an extra risk.

Matt: 28:00

Yeah, I mean, if you look at some of the most accidents in the world, they're generally human error and they're generally because of cultural issues or because of the pilots just not experienced enough. So you know we have, when we get into the industry of pilots, we have a really difficult entry because most airlines want experienced pilots but if we don't have a job, we can't get experienced to get those jobs. So you have this really kind of dangerous window of new pilots getting in the industry and they don't have the experience. Now you usually have someone sat next to you who's got way more experience than a newbie, but sometimes you don't you be, but sometimes you don't sometimes economics can kind of rush people through the system, because you know airlines need pilots to sit as a captain when maybe they're not.

Matt: 28:55

Maybe in a different time, when they have a oversupply of pilots, they may not need to rush people through the systems.

Jeffrey: 29:02

So you know, a lot of guys are coming straight out the air, you know generally, it does come down to um the training.

Matt: 29:06

So if you think about driving a car.

Jeffrey: 29:06

it's like, you know, a lot of guys are coming straight out the air, you know generally it does come down to the training.

Matt: 29:08

So if you think about driving a car, it's like you know you do, you do some driving lessons and you know most of the time if you're not you know you're not that crazy bad at driving you're going to, you're going to pass your test and then you kind of let loose. It's see what happens.

Tom: 29:27

So which airlines are you telling me not to ever step foot on again?

Mickey: 29:30

Yeah, you can say those names.

Tom: 29:32

You ain't got to say celebrities. I travel a lot and I take a lot of airlines.

Matt: 29:38

Well, asia, you have to watch out the airlines in America, even the low cost ones. You're good, you're well established out there and the market's so good right now and you've got nothing to worry about. But once you start going same with Europe, once you start going into Asia, where they're kind of like 30, 40 years behind the rest of the world in the aviation industry, the education is not so good and there's so many cultural battles, such as if you have a captain and a first officer in a cockpit, you need to work together as a team. Right, you've got two guys responsible for 200 people's lives. A lot of these Asian cultures, it's whatever the captain says goes. So the first officer is just there to basically just say yes, even if the first officer and this is is you know, you can look at many accidents like this in asia when the first officer might spot something or might have an opinion, the cap, he either won't speak up or, if he does speak up, the captain would just say no, you're juniors, stop, why are you speaking out? Turn. There's a lot of these, you know. Think about japan, indonesia, china, korea, these countries those cultural differences and those cultural battles exist.

Matt: 30:51

So in my experience, having flown with some of these airlines but, more importantly, met a lot of these pilots, I would stay clear of China Airlines. Any airline in China. I would stay clear of um some indian low-cost airlines. I'd stay clear of people. Airlines like air asia, um, asiana, just, you know the, the, the more low-cost asian airlines. Stick with your legacy carriers like malaysia airlines, singapore airlines, um you know quantus, uh garuda, yeah, you're writing this down making yeah. So when I flew, I flew when Malaysia Airlines Singapore.

Matt: 31:28

Airlines Qantas Garuda.

Mickey: 31:29

You writing this down, mickey? Yeah, so when I flew to China and Japan, it was Qantas Cool, you're fine. Long flights, got to stand up, walk through. But I could kind of see what he's saying. It kind of makes sense from a cultural standpoint. I could kind of see what he's saying. It kind of makes sense from a cultural standpoint, like there's a lot, there's like a respect factor Once you go to the Eastern part of the world. Like you have to kind of like obey your superior as opposed to having dialogue. So I get that, I get that.

Matt: 31:59

Which is fine in the military, because the military, the whole military system, is based on rank and hierarchy and orders. But, when you get it into this. The civilian world just doesn't work. It just, it just doesn't work at all. You there is. You still have to have higher hierarchy. Something goes wrong.

Matt: 32:15

You have to have the accountable person to make a decision right, but generally speaking, you're working as equals, you're working as as team members, and what a lot of people don't know is that every flight they rotate, everyone rotates. So in terms of who flies the actual plane. So you might fly a flight where the first officer relatively inexperienced not inexperienced, but relatively compared to a captain would be hand, would be the one operating the aircraft and the captain will be doing the radios, the checklists, paperwork and just assisting essentially. So that's common practice in the east, in the far east, in a lot of asian countries, the captain will always fly you know it just doesn't.

Matt: 32:57

It doesn't breed safety, just doesn't breed a, you know, a safe environment. So yeah, try and stay clear of those ones I got, I got a photography question.

Jeffrey: 33:07

A real good friend of of mine he's just an amateur photographer, he's actually pretty good. He found a camera on the street in Harlem for like five hours, some old camera, and he's been using it and the texture of the pictures is, you know, very striking. You know, very, you know, striking. You know. Do you find, um, the newer technology cameras that you use are, um, I know it's digital and it's crispy, clean and all that, but you find some of the older ones that give you more character, or does that even matter anymore?

Matt: 33:38

oh yeah, great point. I mean I have three film cameras because I just love it's. It's kind of coming back into trend, the old analog photography, because it just has such a different, real nostalgic feel about it. And the process of taking film is much more difficult because you don't get to see the image when you take it right. So you have to be, you have to. You know my one of my cameras. It has a roll of film which you can have 12 shots on it. So if you take that out for the day, you've got 12 opportunities to get even maybe just one shot right. So your whole mindset changes. You know, if you think about your iphone and you go out for a day with friends and family, you're probably getting 20 photos on your phone. I just, you know just this, that this that videos.

Matt: 34:22

If you think about film photography yeah, it's just a completely different way of doing it. But yeah, aesthetically speaking, this has a just such a different feel and it's um, I love it. I I don't do many commercial stuff, uh, commercial projects with it, um, but I always have it kind of in my bag and get other shots that wouldn't be kind of like the main shot. So it's more of a lifestyle thing for me, like a daily thing, um to to get some film, film stuff, because it's just awesome so, speaking of like past and present, you said something earlier I want to touch on, and that is social media and that in theory right everybody thinks they're a photographer at this point and a couple different, different things there, right?

Tom: 35:06

I was reading an article the other day and there was a number of videographers and photographers who basically I think in a joking way, but also in a very serious way were almost like we need to bring back 16 by nine format. Right, because everything has shifted back to this vertical format and the one by ones and in some ways, it's taking away the richness of of the industry of taking a photo, of taking video, because of the different format and and because now everybody is thinking from a tiktok or from a instagram perspective. Like what's your take on that? In terms of both the format and this, I mean, I guess technology has allowed us, in essence, to all think we're professional photographers.

Matt: 35:53

How long have you got? I think I opened up a can of worms didn't I yeah.

Matt: 35:58

I teach this. It's part of a lot of my, I guess, education side of photography. It's. It's not chasing the algorithm, it's, otherwise. You know you're diluting every bit of artistic integrity that you might have inside of you. But I understand why, as photographers especially, we want our work to get out there. In order for our work to get out there, more eyes to see it, we have to abide. We have to kind of chase the algorithm a little bit or chase the platform and therefore we start to abide. We have to kind of chase the algorithm a little bit or chase the platform and therefore we start to crop our photos to that, like you said, that four by five aspect ratio. I'm fortunate enough where I've kind of got a. I've got a big enough following, certainly on instagram now, to be able to just do I don't care, I just don't care, and I didn't even do that when I had 2000 followers, right it's like.

Matt: 36:47

I just don't care. I honestly believe that the cream does rise to the top and the best really do come through in the end. But that's as easy to say and not so easy to do in practice, so I hate it. I hate Instagram for that. I hate the way Instagram has forced us into a short form video generation. I hate the way photographers get ostracized where you know the.

Matt: 37:15

The true origin of instagram was photography um so, yeah, look, 16 by 9 is is just normal, like go to the movies, watch, watch tv. You don't watch it in 9 by 16. You don't watch it in nine by 16, right. You don't watch it in four by five. You watch it. You know, our eyes are trained to see in a more of a horizontal way. That is our field of vision. So, unfortunately, instagram, would you know, forced into that by the fact that phones are vertical and they want to capture more attention on the screen. So we have to learn, as photographers, to work with that, not necessarily work around it, but just work with it. And so there are ways, there are techniques to do it if, if photographers really care about that but you know, that's why we have websites and that's why, uh, we have youtube.

Matt: 38:01

That's why we have, you know, even um, even um, x and twitter. I keep wanting to call it twitter, but even x. As a photographer, you can. You can have a good experience on x because you can post in high resolution and you can post horizontally and people can can twist their phone and they can see it and people do so. There are ways to work with it. But, yeah, I I could spend hours talking about social media, um, the impact on photographers and the impact on society as a whole, but I think it's important, as, whatever profession we're in whether we're photographers, musicians, creators, accountants, lawyers, whatever it is to use a platform of social media for a specific purpose.

Matt: 38:44

Right, they're just tools, you're not going to sit on you know, on know on your deathbed and go well, look at my amazing instagram feed that I created over the span of 10 years.

Matt: 38:52

You're just not going to do that as long as you can, you know, understand the utility of these things, and especially for photographers, where they have to. It's such a powerful tool to get their artwork in front of people. Use it as a tool. Don't use it as your gallery. Don't use it as your portfolio. Don't use it as the tool. Don't use it as your gallery. Don't use it as your portfolio. Don't use it as the be all and end all of your existence, right? So yeah, it's fairly nuanced, but it's difficult to navigate around, for sure, and I understand the difficulties people have.

Mickey: 39:20

All right, all right, all right, all right, enough, enough, enough, enough. Let's get to the real stuff. Let's talk about models.

Jeffrey: 39:30

All right, here we go.

Mickey: 39:32

Let's go, let's do it, let's do this have you seen some of his models. I'm trying to figure it out.

Tom: 39:39

I can't wait to get into this now.

Mickey: 39:40

I want to see, I want to hear from the horse's mouth.

Jeffrey: 39:45

Right.

Mickey: 39:46

Pause, pause. Models Right from the horse's mouth. Right pause, pause models right like what is what is your process with working with them? That's one and two. What's some of the best experiences you've had shooting models?

Matt: 40:01

how to work with models is something I haven't figured out yet. It's so difficult. It depends if they're professional models or they are just people off the street wanting their photos taken, or it's somewhere in between, where it's kind of like a collab. It's different every time. I've kind of talked about this a lot in my course, but there is no formula. But you have to learn how to be good with people. You have to learn how to have a conversation. You have to, even if you're an introvert. That can often work in your favor. You can have so many ways to kind of break the ice. You can prepare a lot. For example, you can do vetting calls, you can have introductory meetings and calls and do a mood board and talk about style, all of loads of stuff before you even get someone in the studio. But once yeah, once they're in the studio, it's about making them feel two things One, comfortable in the environment and around you and two, trusting you. You just it's very difficult to get a good photo without trust from whoever you're, whoever you're shooting. So, yeah, look if they're a good looking woman. I have to have my wife there because I just want to make sure that everything is above board. But I know guys. I know guys that shoot nude women right, and they shoot very exposed photos and I don't know how they do it. They spend a couple of days kind of getting to know the person and making sure there is like an element of trust there. But I think that's a real skill For me.

Matt: 41:38

If I bring them into my studio and we do a model shoot, it's just about having fun. You know as soon as they know that you're not taking things too seriously and you're not asking too much of them, and you spend probably the first 30 minutes like just getting to know each other, having a coffee, making sure their favorite music is on, making sure they know that they have a private area to change, making sure they just little things like knowing where the toilet is, and making sure you know we're gonna have a break and this is the plan and this is what I want you to look like. When we actually get the camera out, they usually already quite relaxed and then immediately they'll. We figure each other out in terms of shooting style and what we want to do in terms of setups and poses and all that kind of stuff, and by the end of it they're almost taking over the shoot you know, they're almost saying, hey, let's try this, I to do this, and have you got time to do more of this?

Matt: 42:29

So, yeah, it's a really good question. It's a really difficult one. I can't even remember your second question now, so you might have to.

Mickey: 42:35

I mean favorite women that you've shot. I don't know if you know them by name, and obviously maybe Tom could do some research and, you know, throw it in so we can have something for the algorithm.

Matt: 42:46

you know I'm saying so yeah yeah, um, yeah, yeah, no, I mean no, all the models by name. I think that's an, that's obviously an important thing and I most photographers probably say oh, you know, my last shot, my last shoot was, you know, my favorite one. Because you know, we, usually you're only as good as your last shot, right? You're always. Usually you're getting better each time over the course of however many years. Um, so, yeah, I shot a girl. She, she's a, she's kind of a friend of ours. We have like a in in bali, I have like a cafe and then a studio on top and we run these once a month. We run these kind of month, we run these kind of open sessions. So we have models who kind of put their hand up saying, look, I'll be your model for this session. So no one has to, we don't have to pay them, but they get some cool images. And then we have 10 to 20 people come in and just, you know, try things and shoot stuff for the model.

Tom: 43:49

And um are you doing these for, for actual brands, clients?

Matt: 43:50

or no, not these. What's the relationship, okay? No, not these ones. They're just. They're just people in our community, exactly, yeah and um, just for really for me to practice and test new looks and stuff. So yeah, I put some on instagram, I think last week, of kind of my recent shoot which I'm you know. I love them, love some of the shots. Her name is Nadine, you might be able to see that on my page, but, yeah, always as good as the last shot, I guess.

Jeffrey: 44:16

Nice. Who's your hero photographer? Who's your guys you look up to?

Matt: 44:22

Well, my main one is a guy called Joey L. Joey, I actually had him on the podcast in Brooklyn. We did a podcast in Brooklyn about a year ago, which was a real privilege. He's from Canada and he lives in Brooklyn, but he's been working with some of the biggest giants out there in terms of brands and individuals. He started a lot in studio photography and then worked his way into more kind of really kind of the type of photography I do now with, with travel and cultural portraits. So, um, he's he's someone I've always looked up to for kind of like the last 10 years.

Matt: 45:02

A guy called joey l. You can look him up and then you know you've got some more kind of famous ones like annie leibovitz, steve mccurry, um, the platon people that have that have done some incredible and, and more importantly, meaningful portrait work and meaningful photography where, um, you know you can actually see they've made an impact in in the world at some point. And then you have people you know people that are not with us on this planet anymore, but that really kind of laid the foundation of photography, that are most people's heroes, like Henri Cartier-Bresson and Richard Avedon and people like that cool what are some of the?

Tom: 45:41

what are some of the favorite brands that you have worked with or clients?

Matt: 45:47

oh, I mean, I don't do much. I've probably worked with a handful of brands. I don't really do much. Um, I don't really like it. I don't really like doing someone else's shoot for them. But you know some of the big big ones like canon. You know who just have things sorted out. You know some of the big big ones like Canon. You know who who just have things sorted out. You know there's such big organizations that, um, you know the budgets are friendly and their organizational structure is great and that's what you want as a photographer. You just kind of want to go into to a job just having everything sorted out for you right, without having to kind of put a whole team together and be a director of photography as much as a photographer.

Tom: 46:29

See, I'm on the other side of that spectrum. I like being the guy who puts it all together. Oh really.

Matt: 46:35

He's in his people and he's into life.

Tom: 46:37

Well, I mean, you know we do two different things, but to me that's the creative side of it. Right Is to take their vision and to put it through my lens and to bring it to life with the people and pieces that I know are going to get them there, even if it's not how they thought they were going to get there.

Matt: 46:53

If you can find a brand to work with that will allow you that creative freedom. A lot of brands that a lot of photographers work with. They're a little bit stifled. In terms of the brief right, I would agree yeah. This is what we want. So there's always a limit. There's very rare that you get well, in my experience, you get a brand that you just go. We love your stuff and your style so much. Just go and just Do your thing. Here's the money to go and do what you want to do.

Tom: 47:22

Matt, we're going to get there with you, don't you worry.

Matt: 47:24

Okay, cool, don't you worry, Thanks.

Tom: 47:26

All right, I want to ask you this now You're a gadget guy. I'm assuming that's how you got into podcasting. Right, that's how I got into it. I kind of started to love to use all these great stories that I get to live every day to life and to get to meet people and to interview people that have a completely different perspective on life. But what was your journey into podcasting, and I want to learn a little bit. You've been doing this for a long, a good amount of time. Now you have a lot of episodes to your show I do.

Matt: 48:00

Well, in the grand scheme of things, I don't right. You look at the kind of the bigger podcast that there are hundreds of episodes in and, uh, you know, we're 52 episodes in as of yesterday and don't, don't undercut yourself.

Tom: 48:13

I mean no, no, no. Anybody who can get past.

Matt: 48:15

I think 10 is doing something, because it's hard, this isn't easy, it is, it is difficult, it is a it's a full-time job, if you want, if you're gonna do it like properly, right? So yeah, look um. No, it wasn't, it wasn't the equipment. Um, actually the equipment annoys me, uh, because it's, it's not, you know, it's just. Audio is like the bane of my existence. It's so difficult to get the audio on point um, and it took me 20 episodes to even, like, get close to where where audio should have been.

Matt: 48:48

So, yeah, I just I just learned by making so many mistakes. But no, it was, it was, it was the need for conversation. I felt, you know, I really started reaching out to other photographers in COVID because, you know, we're all a lot of us were under lockdown and I was wanting to, I was wanting to kind of connect with the photography community out there and, um, I found it difficult. Even before COVID I found it difficult. It wasn't like I wasn't. I'm not a photography club guy, like it's. I'm not that kind of geek that likes to go and like, just, you know, jizz over their equipment with each other. I, I I'm more of a guy that wants to sit and just have a, have a deeper, meaningful conversation about whether it's about photography or not.

Matt: 49:33

And I found that photographers didn't really want to do that. There was like a they didn't want to share any secrets. They didn't want to, like, you know, go and edit together or go and shoot together, because it's like, well, no, that's my image, you know, I don't want you to kind of copy me, or you know, it was a very kind of protected um ip in that respect. So you know, I just didn't like that and um, I I just wanted to talk to people and then kind of add in the fact that social media and people being glued to their phones all the time, yeah, meant the discourse was more meaningful.

Matt: 50:06

Discourse is more rare. We're all glued to short form content, so people were creating stuff was like you know, I need to get attention, I need to get hooks, I need to just like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang all the time, doom scrolling, doom scrolling. It's like whoa, whoa, whoa. Can we just kind of connect with each other again? Can we like just talk to each other and maintain some kind of focus for more than two minutes, right? And so I started doing instagram lives and um, really, again, it was a selfish endeavor. It was like, you know, I want to, I want to learn from others, just like you. I want to like talk to other photographers who've done more than me in the space and I want to learn. I want to get like, give me some free, you know, give me some free advice. Basically, yeah, and then those instagram lives were shit, because it was instagram live and um, but people, I would get some feedback and people said, oh, you know, you're quite good at it.

Matt: 50:54

I enjoyed the conversation and you know I was only doing like 15 20 minute conversations at this point. And then, when I moved to bali, an opportunity opened up where I wanted a studio. I wanted a photography studio where I could do photo shoots, and at the same time I managed to figure out a way to just turn it into a podcast studio as well. And what better opportunity would that be to kind of set up a proper podcast? And as soon as I got into four or five episodes of sitting down across the table from other budding photographers or other artists that were in bud at the time, I loved it, I was hooked. You know just, I'd come away from it having this weird high of connecting with another human where there's nothing else, like there's nothing else, phones away, no one else in the room, just one-on-one eye contact.

Matt: 51:47

You know, not in a weird way, but you know, just like a yeah, a one-on-one conversation with another human that we just I even including me just don't do anymore, you know, like a even you know how many times you go to a restaurant and you see people having dinner and they're on a date and at some point in that dinner I mean, it's just it's.

Matt: 52:07

It's. It is a way of life at the moment, but it's, I wanted to. That was kind of a big reason why I wanted to start the podcast, and the only kind of topic I knew to talk about at the time was was photography? So it definitely started as more of an interview type learning, learning, conversation. I wanted to learn from other people. Now it's a little bit more of a more of a conversational, you know, episode based podcast, I guess it's, it's very good.

Tom: 52:36

I'm I'm hooked um thank you who? Now? I haven't, I haven't listened to them all yet I'm getting through them, but I gotta let me ask you this who who's number one? Who was who's been? If you can say who's been that guest, though, that really made you think and that you walked away thinking wow, like like you really pulled something from that. That was special now I'm not.

Matt: 52:57

This is not a cop-out, but I do pull something from every like every episode I come away going. You know I took something out of that right, but I did one recent joey l in brooklyn. It wasn't in my own studio, which is a shame. One day I'll maybe get him in in my own studio. But the one I did with joey l in brooklyn because he was kind of my hero in photography space, I was just like this you know the whole episode like just just tell me more, right.

Matt: 53:23

But I think one of the recent ones I did with a photographer called platon he that was an online episode and um, we talked for about an hour and a half and he, he has so much to say and so many like insightful points about photography, yes, but more storytelling and impactful um and inspirational visual arts in in society and how we can certainly as photographers or as filmmakers or as other types of artists can really like make a significant and positive impact within the wider society, or more of like a micro economy, a micro society with people in your inner circle or if you become more successful and become a little bit more public than people outside of that as well. So that was really a conversation.

Matt: 54:18

Uh, I came away from going holy shit, I know nothing, you know I I, you know, in a good way, like you know, in a good form of kind of naivety, and like I, I have so much space to, to grow as a, as a storyteller and as a you know a way to give back. You know such a privileged position for me to be able to like take people's photos and get paid for it. You know, now it's time to you know, do more meaningful projects and to you know, give back somehow. Um, I haven't figured that out yet, but it was certainly a kind of a conversation which made me think more about that kind of thing, for sure what prompted the move to bali and how was and how was it living there?

Jeffrey: 55:00

uh, obviously it's a totally different culture, totally different part of the world. Like what, what? What that about?

Matt: 55:06

yeah, it was. Um, it was essentially covid. We were living in hong kong, so my pilot job took took us to hong kong me and my wife to hong kong back in 2013 and we had lived there for just under 10 years and when covid hit, covid really was quite a struggle in hong kong because, although we didn't have any significant lockdowns, to travel out and back into Hong Kong, you'd have to quarantine in a hotel for three weeks without leaving the room, and that was going for two years. They were one of the last countries in the world to relax those restrictions, so you had to stay in a hotel room for three weeks.

Jeffrey: 55:43

When you got back.

Matt: 55:45

Got from the us it's three weeks. From other countries it was two weeks. There was nothing less than two weeks. So, depending on where in the world you're coming from, you get tested every day. If you got tested positive, you'd basically go into essentially a medical prison where you're on, which I happened to me and I really go into this ward and you stay in there for however many weeks it takes you to test negative twice within the space of 24 hours.

Matt: 56:10

It was very draconian, very autocratic way of dealing and it's come from the mainland right. So china were kind of imposing their will on hong kong. So I you know, me and my wife like fuck this, I can't live. Even if they relax the restrictions tomorrow, this is not a place I want to live where this type of thing can happen. So Indonesia was a country that was second certainly on my list to try and see what it would be like living in, because it's such a diverse country, so huge and so diverse, and as a photographer it's a mecca. It's just endless places, endless subcultures to take photos. So bali was an obvious choice. We got married there um six years ago. We'd been a couple of times on holiday because from hong kong. It was only like a four, four and a half hour flight okay so we kind of knew it.

Matt: 57:02

But we, you know, we knew enough about it to know that I would really like to go and try living there, um, and there wasn't really anywhere else that would, that would be conducive to, to our lifestyle that we wanted to to live in at the time. So, yeah, and that was. You know, we haven't really looked back since. We kind of love it there that's dope.

Tom: 57:20

wow. Well, matt, I feel like we could talk to you for hours. I want to know so much more. But let me ask you this on the podcast thing, I'm going to ask you two questions. One lessons learned, like what have you learned? Teach us a little something. We're all in this podcast game. I love it, for I think you articulated it I couldn't have said it better. I love having conversations with people I would have probably never in a million years bump into on the street or have the ability to talk to. And number two, and I'll give you time to think about this if you could have anyone on that podcast anyone, who would it be?

Matt: 57:56

you guys honestly good answer.

Mickey: 58:01

Good answer. Um, this guy's media trained, he knows what to do, man.

Matt: 58:08

These are great questions. I love them and, before I continue, I can't believe we're 50 minutes in. It's been so nice to talk to you guys. I love this format, obviously. Once you guys reached out to me, I looked at some of your episodes and love the way you guys just banter with each other and roll off and your timing is is great and it's a. It's a different format that you guys do for podcasts and um, I love it, so please keep it up. I'm I'm one of the new fans, so, uh, it's been great to be your question tips.

Matt: 58:44

Know about audio. It's way more important than video. I agree, you know, without audio you can't, in my opinion, you just can't gain a successful podcast. You just people would get bored of shit. Audio, right, people would. You know it's just another barrier for people to continue listening to your podcast. So, number one, before you even start an episode, you know it's just another barrier for people to continue listening to your your podcast. So, number one, before you even start an episode, not speak to someone who knows about audio. You can only learn so much through youtube, I think. But you know, get, get an audio technician, um, set it up with them. You don't have to spend a fortune on your equipment. You can get great audio with an iphone. You just got to know what you're doing. Um, unfortunately, I learned the hard way with that um, and then two other things I've definitely learned along the way and and it's kind of the art of hosting right and you guys have you've done it really well in this episode as well just give you know kind of the same thing, I guess, but learn how to listen and give space to the guests to just talk and continue talking right, Know when to come in.

Matt: 59:48

So many podcasts out there you see, like interrupting or making it about themselves. And although it can be a two-way conversation and some people like those types of podcasts, I'm kind of somewhere in between that and the interview type podcast. I just can't stand interview type podcast where it's just like okay, here's a question, answer it on to the next question. So I think there's a really nice kind of middle ground. But in order to do that, you've got to kind of know how to listen right and know when to jump in. So on, on top of that, I would say do your research right. I think you know to really have a a good conversation.

Matt: 1:00:26

That isn't the same every time. You're asking the same, and I did this for the first probably 20 episodes. I had a rough structure of questions. I would ask photographers every time, and it was people that pulled me up on that. It's like just stop asking the same questions, or I thought the same questions would apply to all photographers, but you know they did, they don't, and it gets boring. So do some deep dive research and there's no excuse. These days, with the content you can see on people, right, you can find everyone has a digital presence. So, uh, yeah, no, so yeah, have a really good plan in your mind as to what direction you want the conversation to go, and that just takes practice as well, right?

Tom: 1:01:07

And I know you guys just ended with this the perfect person that you want on your show, Like not just us. The person I mean hey, anytime you want us on, we're there, we'll fly to Bali, you in.

Jeffrey: 1:01:21

I'm down, do it.

Tom: 1:01:26

Just not on the Asianian airline. No asian airline. And then afterwards I'm going to drop you off at some remote island for a shooting of naked and afraid.

Jeffrey: 1:01:35

Yeah, I keep bringing it back to that I keep bringing it back to that yo, he's crazy, make his wall with it.

Matt: 1:01:44

The one guy I dream of getting on a podcast is a guy that has nothing to do with photography, but he was the man that got me into listening to podcasts, and it's Sam Harris.

Tom: 1:01:56

Now.

Matt: 1:01:58

Sam Harris is a controversial figure. I've listened to him and read probably almost all of his books, listened to him for I guess 10 years or however long he's been doing podcasts and he is someone who I just want to meet and and like trying to get into his brain for hours. You know he's, he's such a this philosophical academic who who has so much to say about everything and knows so much about everything and I'd love to just sit and listen to him but maybe that wouldn't make a great podcast. But yeah, he's kind of one of my heroes in the podcasting space. I think his podcast you know he's never been tempted with a video type of podcast, he's just been audio through and through and his production quality is great.

Matt: 1:02:47

His structure is amazing, his topics are generally really interesting and thought-provoking and and that's all I'm looking for in a podcast or and even in a book or any type of content is how are you going to provoke my thought for that day? How are you going to kind of make me think differently about something? So there are so many people out there that can do that and so many people in the podcast space that you know just run amazing podcasts and really help people out there, and for me Sam Harris is one of them. So you know he's kind of the OG in my mind when it comes to kind of the scientific, boring type of podcasts. So I'd love to have him on the show one day.

Tom: 1:03:27

And there's an interesting debate in our. We talk about this a lot, that idea of audio versus video, right, because in some ways people want to see the people that are talking, but in other ways, right, the medium is used in my mind when you're doing other things, right, that's how it's grown. You're running, you're working, you're cleaning, you're whatever. And I also think there's a mystery sometimes to hearing just audio, because in your own mind you're kind of putting together what that person's looking like, what they're thinking about, and I don't know. I go back and forth. I think we put it out as both but're we're honestly thinking about. Is audio the the way to go? Because you can have a lot more intrigue and you can do some things that you can't do when you're doing both. How about this? So it is an interesting debate I, I agree.

Matt: 1:04:14

I've been thinking about it a lot. All of my analytics favor the audio absolutely like yeah, so many more downloads, so many more listens than than a YouTube video. A YouTube's not built for podcasts. Like people don't go onto YouTube to search for podcasts, right? So my only thought to that is what I'm thinking about, and maybe you know, one of us can try it first, see what happens. But it's to go all in on the audio but to offer the video as a separate, maybe a behind a paywall.

Jeffrey: 1:04:42

Right, if you want to see the video of this.

Matt: 1:04:43

You pay a couple of bucks right, and then you you get the video as well. Um, because at the moment, the numbers, I go through all this effort, just like you guys, because there's so much effort to produce a high quality video and sometimes it just falls on on deaf ears or blind.

Matt: 1:04:58

Nobody's watching it, yeah nobody's watching it, but I, I think, because I'm a photographer like the visual aspects are so important. I think, as a photography podcast, I want that visual option to be there. But yeah, I feel your pain, man, I'm thinking about it a lot as well.

Tom: 1:05:17

Well, matt, thank you. Thank you for getting back to me. A crazy guy who reached out because he just loved your photography and we got to connect. I mean, that's what makes this kind of thing very special. So tell people where they can find you. Tell people the name of the podcast. Again, I want people to be able to find Matt Jacob.

Matt: 1:05:35

Yeah, thanks, tom. I mean thanks for reaching out as well. I love those types of organic connections. It's wonderful. So keep doing what you're doing. You can find me on my website, mattjakephotographycom. Everything is on there. My Instagram links the podcast links as well. The podcast is called the Mood Podcast. You can find that on all the normal podcast platforms and on YouTube. Just type in the Mood Podcast, you'll find it on YouTube as well. So everything else is on my website.

Tom: 1:06:03

All right in the mood podcast.

Matt: 1:06:05

You'll find it on youtube as well, so everything else is on my website.

Jeffrey: 1:06:07

All right, thank you, matt, I really appreciate it. I might call you back on more orgy stories I can tell you all the details of itself names and everything.

Tom: 1:06:17

Names and everything oh, here we go thanks a lot, man, thank you all right Thanks so much. Thank you All right folks. That's our show. Tune in to Unglossy Decoding Brand and Culture on Apple Podcasts, spotify or YouTube, and follow us on Instagram at UnglossyPod, to join the conversation. Until next time, I'm Tom Frank.

Jeffrey: 1:06:40

I'm Jeffrey Sledge.

Tom: 1:06:43

Smicky, that was good.