Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture
Welcome to "Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," where we delve into the essence of branding beyond the surface sheen. A brand is more than just a logo or a slogan; it's a reflection of identity, values, and reputation that resonates within our cultural landscape. Enjoy as we peel back the layers to uncover the raw, authentic stories behind the people and products that shape our world.
This isn't your average corporate podcast. Join Tom Frank, partner and chief creative officer at Merrick Creative, Mickey Factz, Hip Hop Artist and Founder and CEO of Pendulum Ink, and Jeffrey Sledge, a seasoned music industry veteran, for "Unglossy" as they get to the heart of what truly drives individual and organizational brand . In a world where where image is carefully curated and narratives meticulously crafted, we're here to explore the moments of vulnerability, pivotal decisions, and creative sparks that fuel the relationship between brand and culture.
Get ready for a thought-provoking journey into the heart and soul of branding – the unscripted, unfiltered, and truly Unglossy truth. Tune in to "Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod and join the conversation.
Unglossy is produced and distributed by Merrick Studios. Let your story take the mic. Learn more at https://merrick-studios.com
Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture
Stirman: Part 1 – From Under the Hood to Social Media Titan
What happens when a tech visionary starts his journey in an auto repair shop with no mechanical knowledge? In this captivating episode, Jason Stirman, a multifaceted innovator, shares his unconventional path from running a failing business to making significant strides at Twitter and Medium. We dive into his early challenges, managing unreliable employees, and dealing with dissatisfied customers, revealing how these initial setbacks sharpened his business acumen and conflict resolution skills.
Get ready to hear Stirman's nostalgic trip back to the early days of Twitter, packed with memorable anecdotes, including Snoop Dogg’s visit to the office. This episode explores not just the evolution of a social media giant, but the cultural impact it’s had ever since.
We delve into Stirman's friendship with Ev Williams, uncovering how their collaboration at Twitter and Medium, shaped the digital landscape. Discover the passion behind their efforts to create platforms that balance media consumption, foster thoughtful writing, and champion the exchange of ideas. Tune in for an episode filled with personal stories, insightful reflections, and the raw truth about combining vulnerability, creativity, and cultural branding.
"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Creative and hosted by Merrick Chief Creative Officer, Tom Frank, hip hop artist and founder of Pendulum Ink, Mickey Factz, and music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to hear this thought-provoking discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/.
Welcome to the "All About M.E. Podcast ," the podcast where music meets the...
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
This week on Unglossy 140 characters and a button. I could build this in a weekend. This ain't going to be nothing. It's fun now, but I'm not going to move my family across the country for this thing. And Evan just looked me right in the eyes and he said look, if we do this right, it'll change the way the world communicates. I'll never forget that Set in a shady bar in the mission and at the time I thought like I like you, but you're crazy man, you know. But I want to rock with you. So I stuck with him. We started working on.
Speaker 1:Twitter and some other ideas From the top. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm Tom Frank, I'm Mickey Fax.
Speaker 4:And I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Unglossy, to coning brand and culture. I'm Tom Frank, partner and chief creative officer at Merit Creative. This is Mickey Fax, hip-hop artist and founder and CEO of Pendulum Inc. And that is Jeffrey Sledge, a seasoned music industry veteran who has worked with some of the biggest artists in the business. We're here to explore the moments of vulnerability, pivotal decisions and creative sparks that fuel the relationship between brand and culture. Get ready for a thought-provoking journey into the heart and soul of branding the unscripted, unfiltered and truly unglossy truth. All right, guys, we got a good one, a really, really good one, and it went places that I didn't even anticipate.
Speaker 3:This is true, this is going to be good. This is my friend.
Speaker 1:This is your friend, so you finally contributed. Yeah, you know, wait a minute, though he might is your friend, so you finally contributed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, wait a minute, though he might be your friend, but who did the outreach? You did the outreach because you know that's your job.
Speaker 1:But you know, but that's my guy like I met him before you, you did, you did meet him before I didn't know anything about him.
Speaker 4:So it was really interesting to me because I was learning I I don't even know. I was like who's? I called me because who's this cat I don't even know? Yeah, he actually did try to's I called me I was like who's this cat? I don't even know. Yeah, he actually did call me. I tried to look him up online. I couldn't find much. I was like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Who's this ghost in the wind? This is an underground guy.
Speaker 3:Sturman, sturman, which just the name itself Sturman.
Speaker 4:That's just it. It's like Prince Sturman. Yeah, you know St the developer of Twitter.
Speaker 1:I actually had no idea. I knew him because of the Bars app Yep and I knew he worked at Meta Yep. I had no idea the backstory about Twitter, about Medium, about all his other interesting apps Yep and the fact that the guy used to own his own car Auto shop, auto shop- Mechanics shop?
Speaker 4:Yep, he doesn't know anything about cars? Yep, he doesn't know anything about cars.
Speaker 3:He doesn't know anything about cars and he's also a producer, you know, uh, he didn't reach out to me to get on his project yeah, he did reach out to me.
Speaker 1:I didn't bring that up, but uh, we'll talk about that later. Yeah, but uh, he has. He has a new music out there right now. Yes, he does. You gotta go check it out, look for sterman yep, it's good stuff. It's good stuff. It's different. It's not what I expected.
Speaker 3:It's not what I expected either, but it sounds really good and he's very passionate about what he does. Just a talented, intelligent, individual man. He's such a peaceful soul as well yeah, very peaceful, very in tune with nature and just life and the spiritual side of things. I think people are going to really enjoy this conversation. Well, I think they are too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and with that let's get into our conversation with.
Speaker 4:Sturman, sturman.
Speaker 1:Sturman Unglossy is brought to you by Merit Creative, looking to skyrocket your business's visibility and drive growth. At Merit Creative, we solve your brand and marketing woes With big ideas, decades of experience and innovative solutions. We'll draw in your target audience and keep them hooked. Remember, creativity is key to success. Partner with Merit Creative and unlock your brand's potential. Learn more at MeritCreativecom.
Speaker 1:And now back to the show. I'd like to kick things off by reading something written by our guest that I found very compelling and I very much enjoyed. Hopefully you'll like this. Let's see. So a dude walks into a bar, sits down and says to the bartender my name is Sturman. I build things on the internet. I'm currently working on new products at Meta. Previously I helped start Medium and was early at Twitter. I design, code and lead product teams. I received a computer science degree from the University of Texas. I helped create him, her and him. I'm thinking that's the kids I'm married to her. I believe that's his wife. I like to make art. I was voted most creative by a high school senior class of over 800 students. I once scored 27 points in a seventh grade YMCA basketball game. My favorite color is a subtle shade of invisible. My spirit animal is the early 90s Dennis Rodman. I'm standing right behind you. Well, actually, at least for today right here on my screen, people say hello to Sterman, thank, you for joining us.
Speaker 2:Yo, man, good to be here.
Speaker 1:That's the whole long-winded intro man, but hey you wrote it and I stumbled upon it and I was like this is perfect, this is perfect for you.
Speaker 2:Well, I wrote that a long time ago and now I feel like I got to go update it. At least, behind the him, her and her, there's some photos of my family which I haven't been updating in a very long time.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's my background, so let me ask you this?
Speaker 2:Does anyone call you by your first name at all? Nobody, nobody.
Speaker 1:Actually my parents. My parents are the only ones.
Speaker 2:My sister, because they're all Sturmans also. But man, I just grew up with lots of different Jasons grew up in Texas and I must have had in my classes growing up my grades were probably five, 600,000 people and so that was a popular name back then. I think there was literally seven or eight other Jasons, and so I've been rocking Sturman since a wee little boy and still going strong with it.
Speaker 1:I like it. Now, mickey, before we get into how we know this gentleman, I did find this. I do a lot of research, man, and I want to show this. I found this picture of you. I didn't even think this. I thought maybe I had the wrong guy. Like, who is this guy?
Speaker 3:Move it over a little bit, let me see. Can you see that? Wow, look at that guy.
Speaker 1:That doesn't even look like the same guy that we're talking to right now Handsome, hairless individual.
Speaker 4:Yeah. He had a triple zero on the head, See I mean, I think it fits in a little bit more with us, but you know, zero blade on his joint yeah, man used to used to rock it clean, clean cup.
Speaker 2:But I think the older I got then you know less I cared about what people thought. I always wanted to rock long hair. So I've been this is like been going since covid.
Speaker 4:Basically this is a you know three or four years okay, so I'm just I'm gonna rock man what year was the perfect public was the perfect, perfect. Uh, time to start that? Because you know barbershops is closed.
Speaker 1:Everybody was wolfing anyway, that's right it was the perfect time to just change in general, right, it was the perfect time to do something different, to just be you and do something totally crazy and wild. I kind of I kind of miss it a little bit, not all the disease and all that, but the time I was thinking about that shit the other day too.
Speaker 4:I'm in Atlanta now, sturman. I don't know if you know that you wouldn't know that, but I'm from New York. I was dead in New York City, in Manhattan, when COVID started, and I missed that shit. You missed COVID, I missed the time of the things that were around COVID, not COVID.
Speaker 3:The time, the time.
Speaker 4:Being able, the time of the things that were around the time, the time, the time. Being able to literally walk down the middle of Broadway because there was no cars on the street, walk down Broadway like it's a sidewalk. I miss that type of shit and the peacefulness of it. I totally get it, man.
Speaker 2:I don't miss the sickness. Obviously I was very lucky and privileged to be in this situation. Me and my family could be happy and healthy. But for me I'm kind of a natural introvert, so it was like a time when everything shut down. The family kind of got together. We relied on each other, relied on our neighbors, and that's when I really started getting serious about music production we can talk about here in a little bit but also everyone's picking up new hobbies and you're on Zoom calls with people at work. You're seeing their kids and spouses in the background, kind of realizing like everyone's just a human trying to do their best. You know. So, like you know, I don't, like I said, don't don't miss a sickness. But I look back at that time pretty fine. I think it's pretty special. Like you know, a couple of years indoors with the fam was was good for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I felt like I met more people I met more I would have never met ever before, including you, right. So, mickey, we got to tell him, we got to tell the world how we know this guy.
Speaker 3:Well how I know him. You met him. I met him through you, mickey. I'll admit that.
Speaker 4:Mick is the plug. Mick is the plug and he never lets you forget that no, he never lets me forget it.
Speaker 3:We can't let anybody forget it. I mean, I was bored, you know, I was bored in the house and I brought some rappers up, you know, and the rappers came on and they started rhyming and he brought me up and I just spit straight fire and he was like I got to rock with this guy.
Speaker 2:Is that what happened?
Speaker 3:The end, let's cut the show, that's not what happened Go ahead. I think I brought a couple celebrities up and our mutual friend DJ Deluxe. He was like hey man, you know we could do this through the Bars app and you know we can help fund it and get it going. And no exaggeration, I brushed DJ off the first time. I was like hey man, I got this man Chillation. I brushed DJ off the first time.
Speaker 4:I was like hey man, I got this man.
Speaker 3:I'm doing this myself. I don't really need any help. Right, that was the first message I sent to DJ, and then DJ is very, a very persistent person. The second time he came back.
Speaker 3:Hey listen, bro, uh, nah, seriously, like, we'll take care of some of the payment and stuff like that, don't worry about anything. You know, you have the traction, you can get people here to our app and let's make it work. And I said I don't believe you, but OK, let's, let's, let's do it. And DJ walked me through this process and eventually, you know, in the second season is when I kind of met Sturman.
Speaker 3:The first season was a complete success. We had Lupe pull up and you know Vega, the 7 Ronin, who won our competition. He's now like a household name in the underground scene. He's selling vinyls out in five minutes, you know. And before we put him on the bars app, he had no exaggeration, he had like a hundred followers. He's up at like seven, eight thousand followers now and that's strictly off of what we did with the bars app and, uh, you know that whole competition. Um, so when we pulled it back for the second year you know, obviously, time, I brought time in for the first year and then we came back around for the second year and that's when I got a chance to kind of get a chance to know who Sturman was, what he accomplished in his life from a tech perspective and how he was involved with the Bars app. Does that sound right, sterling?
Speaker 2:That sounds exactly right, man. And, like I said, I know it was season two of the Mickey Facts Bars Out Challenge. We really connected, but I was following the story from day one. Big shout out to D-Lux DJ for hooking us up and for being persistent and riding you till you'd rock with us and, man, that was a huge moment for me, that was a huge moment for the Bars app. Hopefully it was good for you and and end of the day, we put guys like vega and I, lord owen and these other guys you know on the map, gave him a platform and that's. That's pretty rad. And those, those, those flowers are still blooming from we did a few years ago, which is absolutely and mickey, I don't think you're.
Speaker 1:You're giving it its full love here to me it was like the american idol of rap music and it all. It all happened on Instagram, we released, we released it out on YouTube afterwards. But I mean it was unbelievable, like we would get what 10 to maybe 16 guys pull up every night. They would, they would, they would drop their bars. I mean it was, it was awesome. I mean it was awesome just to listen to these guys who would just walk up to a mic and start spitting, and it was. I loved it. I enjoyed every minute of it. Thank you for getting involved with us, and I think it was a very great mutual relationship and I thoroughly enjoyed being a part of that Me too, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:So let's rewind a little bit. We're going to get back to the Bars app, because we do have to ask some questions about it. Let's rewind a little bit. You're originally from Texas. Yes, sir, you went to the University of Texas Hookah Horns, and then did I read right? You owned an auto repair store.
Speaker 2:I did. I did. So let me I'll back you up a little bit. So graduated from UT in 2000 with a computer science degree.
Speaker 2:I was always a big tech nerd but I was also a big hooper, always playing music. But like I was like a closet tech nerd when I wasn't cool to be a tech nerd. And so I went to school, got a computer science degree, graduated and started working as an engineer in Houston but really realized like being a software engineer was just not going to cut it for me. Like it's just, you know, writing code was one way for me to express my ideas, but so was drawing portraits and making art and making music and building with Legos, and so it was just like another tool to share my ideas with the world. So I kind of got burned out as an engineer pretty quick. So drop that and just was feeling really entrepreneurial.
Speaker 2:My dad was a lawyer but he started his own law firm. I think he just instilled with me a lot of that kind of like entrepreneurial energy. And you know, working for someone has always been hard for me because I like really value autonomy, I like to move and shake at my own pace and do my own things, and so, after dropping the engineering job, I was kind of looking for something to do, and long story short, but this auto repair shop in my in my neighborhood was kind of shutting down. The owner had already moved out of state but then the deal that he was going to sell it. But the deal fell through, so he was left in a weird situation and so I heard about it and so I jumped in. I can, to this day, could barely open the hood of my own car.
Speaker 1:I kid you not.
Speaker 2:See, I thought you were going to say the opposite. No, I kid you not. I couldn't change oil, nothing. I'm looking at engine. I don't know what any of that stuff is, I don't know how it works, but I saw an opportunity to like own a small business. I thought like I could market this thing and get some people in here and, um, long story short, it was the worst year of my life. I'm not kidding.
Speaker 4:Like oh wow, I thought it was going to be like oh, this shit was fly.
Speaker 2:No, the exact opposite. I had. I had two mechanics who were alcoholics and stealing from me the entire year, which I found out later the previous owner had really done some people wrong and so you know people are already going into like auto shops kind of with their guard up, feeling like they're going to get taken over.
Speaker 2:And so here I am. I'm there at 5 am cleaning the toilets, you know, getting ready to open the shop. I'm running the desk I couldn't afford to like hire anyone, so it to me and these two alcoholics running this place and they people would come in because there's something got a broke and they're screaming at me and coincidentally I look like the previous owner, which didn't help me and so I had. I had one dude literally jump over the counter to fight me, you know, because something broke on his car and like the, it's all like a different language.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know what people were talking about. So you talk about a crash course into entrepreneurial efforts, business ownership, conflict management. That stuff I learned in that year. Like I said, it was miserable. That's probably the closest I've ever been to depression in my life. But what I learned that year could have never been taught to me in a classroom in a textbook from friends. You just got to go through the fire to learn sometimes. So very appreciative for shout out Integrity Automotive in Magnolia, texas. But man, as soon as I could get out of that deal, I got out.
Speaker 3:Wow, wow.
Speaker 4:That's definitely not the way I thought that story was going to go.
Speaker 1:I didn't think it was going that way either. So wait a minute. So you jump out of that. Did you immediately jump over to Twitter? Is that was the next landing stop or no?
Speaker 2:No. So while I was running the shop I was still like dorking around with code and design and I had grown a little design studio before that Cause I was, like you know, teaching myself color theory and layout and typography. And then you know the early two thousands like I had. This somewhat embarrassingly late realization for me is that like I could design, I could code, I could make my own like web apps, and the web apps were a new thing come like 2003, 2004,. You know dynamic and this whole boom of the industry. And so I started dorking around with little ideas, you know, just for me, little fun ideas for me and my wife, my family. And a couple of the ideas really took hold and before I know it, like I was on the Today Show, I was in Time Magazine twice, I was in Wall Street Journal. These little apps this little computer nerd from Texas was building. I was really fascinated with SMS technology in the early 2000s.
Speaker 2:The texting it was new, y'all remember like T9, where you had to like press the buttons multiple times. We're all probably about similar age. And back then it cost per text or it cost to text outside your network, but I just sensed this was going is going to be a big thing.
Speaker 2:So I started working on clever ways to send text messages and I came across a little like secret that no one knew about how tech, how telephone companies, worked. And I was enabling people to go to a website, type in like a date and time, a message and a cell phone number and it would send that message to that number at that date and time, which I just thought it would be cool for, like me, to remember to tell people happy birthday or happy anniversary or whatever. But I didn't realize like I was one of the first people to kind of build a interface to SMS technology that wasn't, wasn't on the phone, I mean, these things didn't even exist yet, wow. And so it really blew up faster and quicker than I could have imagined. And here I found myself just with a lot of national attention. All the tech nerds of Silicon Valley were calling me because they were wanting to utilize my technology. And that's when I had a moment like oh shit, people like what I can do, I can maybe do something special with this. So I created a few little companies around that, really selling API access to send text messages easily. But while I was hitting up restaurants and dentist's office and I still had a very local mindset. Growing up in Houston area. Around Houston.
Speaker 2:Some nerds out in Silicon Valley were working on this idea that became Twitter. But it wasn't Twitter to start it. They were at a previous company. It was a podcasting company called Odeo and they kind of put podcasting on the map. But then they caught wind that Apple was probably going to build podcasts into the next versions of iTunes. They were right, kind of killed their business. They couldn't compete with Apple at the time.
Speaker 2:So they were spinning around on some different ideas and Twitter was the idea that kind of caught hold. And so, right, when I met these guys, I had this Twitter idea and they were like, we know the stuff you're working on. I had heard of them because the founder of Twitter named Evan Williams. He had sold Blogger to Google. It was Google's first acquisition, so all that blog spot stuff back in the day. That was him. So I kind of I was like a, I was like a you know Silicon Valley fan boy, like I kind of heard of him, and they were like, look, we've got this idea Twitter. And I was like I flew out there and meet with them Cause, yeah, I can help y'all with this SMS tech, because Twitter was all text message in text message out to start.
Speaker 2:And they were paying out the wazoo for their text message bills. I was like I know how I can do that. I can help you out here. So we started rocking together and pretty early on, me and one of the founders he kind of realized, like I just had, I like to wear a lot of different hats. I could design, I could code, I can make products for people, I like to talk to people. So we started working on different ideas and we had this company called Obvious Corporation and Twitter was going to be one of the Obvious Corporation products. So while I helped them with the SMS stack, twitter kind of started taking off and we were working on some other ideas.
Speaker 2:But within about a year it was real clear that, like, twitter was the idea. You know, when it started it was kind of the punchline in Silicon Valley. People were like who cares what you have for breakfast? You know, like it was like, why would anyone want to do this? Little did they know. Well, people were. People started making fun of Twitter on Twitter. That's when we really knew we were onto something.
Speaker 2:But you know, to my discredit, when it came time to really make a move out there, evan, my guy said hey, bring your family out here. It's going to be a whole thing. And I was like 140 characters and a button, like I could build this in a weekend. Like this ain't going to be nothing. Like it's fun now, but, like you know, I'm not going to move my family across the country for this thing. And Evan just looked me right in the eyes and he said look, if we do this right, it'll change the way the world communicates. I'll never forget that set in a shady bar in the mission and at the time I thought, like I like you, but you're crazy, man, but I want to rock with you. So I stuck with them. We started working on Twitter and some other ideas Did you move out?
Speaker 2:to the Valley, Not right away. I said I'll rock with you, but I want to do it from.
Speaker 3:Texas.
Speaker 2:A little side note is right before that I had started a company and raised some money from some venture capitalists out in Silicon Valley and I had actually sold my house in Texas. I had moved to California and my family was packing up the house to meet me out there and while that was happening the whole deal fell through and I had to move back to Texas. So this was right on the heels of a very disruptive almost moved to California, moved back to Texas situation. So when Evan approached me, I was like I can't do this to my family again. My wife was pregnant at the time you know kid and so I didn't move then but stuck with Ev, started rocking with Twitter, really started learning to manage people, lead product teams, and it was really clear that his vision for changing how the world will communicate was feasible.
Speaker 2:You know which really surprised me. But it was also a unique moment in time where, like you know, the world had never seen anything like that. When we started it, we were just hoping that the tech blogs would stop making fun of us. Never did we think, like you know, world leaders would use this to organize rebellions and terror. I mean, like it really did change the way the world communicated, and you know I'm really happy to be a part of it. So I did move out about a year later and then that was 2008 or so, but out ever since.
Speaker 1:That's crazy that Evan Williams I mean he saw it right from the.
Speaker 2:I mean, I guess you have to. He was the visionary part of this. Yeah, I mean it's. It's a well documented story now. But one of his engineers at Odeo was Jack Dorsey, who now is a pretty name, and it was actually Jack's original concept. But but Ev had the leadership chops and the money and the and the and the bravado to take it and really make it something. And so you know, if you read that Twitter story, like between Biz Stone, jack Dorsey, evan Williams, like the kind of rotating cast of characters and leadership and a lot of discord at the board level nonstop. But to me Ev always represented kind of the heart and spirit of what Medium could and should be. And credit to him, man, he did it Wow.
Speaker 1:Looking back at that, now that we know where Twitter is today, obviously they've changed the world, but now we're on the other side of it. Yeah, what are your thoughts on Twitter today?
Speaker 2:Man, my overarching thought. I just have a lot of gratitude for what that product I mean. It really put me on the map in Silicon Valley as someone that could work and flourish in this industry. It really did change the way the world communicates. I have a lot of lifelong friends that I met on Twitter, that worked at Twitter and so, like my heart's really full and I feel like you know, I feel complete from what Twitter provided for me.
Speaker 2:That said, you know, twitter hasn't changed a ton in the last 15 years or so. I mean still short form tech, put, put it out there. You got followers and I always felt like, as fast as it grew and as popular as it is, that it still had untapped potential, you know, and it still had a lot of problems and it didn't really evolve as quick as some of these other you know, snapchats and TikToks and things that came up. I mean, look, twitter had Vine, vine was TikTok before TikTok, but they squandered it. So there was a lot of stories like that that. I feel like Twitter could have continued to grow and really cemented itself in the fabric of our society even more so now Elon at the helm, I think I'm just more than anything sad about it. I mean, whether you like Elon or not, I have a Tesla.
Speaker 2:I've met Elon a couple of times. Maybe there's, obviously there's a genius in there somewhere that you know can create these things. He's also happy to give you the finger and tell you to fuck off and do it. Do it his way. And when he acquired Twitter, he did that with a lot of employees.
Speaker 2:A lot of them were my friends you know, which still haven't, you know, got what's owed to them, to them, you know, after this, this whole deal, and you know it seems like Twitter is kind of becoming like the Elon fan club social media site. You know it's almost like, you know, trump has true social Elon's got Twitter or X now. And that said, though, it's still going strong, like I think it's a testament to how ingrained Twitter is into the communication infrastructure of our planet. Trained Twitter is into the communication infrastructure of our planet Because even with you know someone who's you know a hothead kind of crazy running the thing and you know giving the finger to advertisers and employees and you know kind of doing everything to mess it up, it's still going. And I'll say, zooming out a little bit, twitter has always tripped over itself with internal discord and leadership changes and bad calls and things like that, but it just keeps on going, which I think is a testament to the original seed of that idea.
Speaker 1:Original seed yeah.
Speaker 2:Really special and continues to flourish.
Speaker 3:So I was on Twitter 2007. Somebody that, a guest that we're going to have on here at some point, saint. He told me he was like you need to sign up for this new thing called Twitter, and I was like okay, so I signed up for it and you know, I would go on there and just speak my mind like most people did, because then nobody knew it was going to turn into what it turned into at Twitter on September 25th 2009, which to me is probably aside from a president being elected or the insurrection is probably one of the biggest days on Twitter the day that Michael Jackson passed away. Michael Jackson trended For 10 days straight. Were you at Twitter at that?
Speaker 2:time. I was. Yeah, I was full-time there from about 2007 to 2011. I left without, yeah.
Speaker 3:What was it like at that time? Because, again, this is early Twitter. This is like maybe two years. I think you guys launched 2006, but the world got it in 2007. But the world got it in 2007. What was it like being at Twitter when MJ passed away and just kind of seeing the traction, because to me that was like the coming out part, like it was every day for like two weeks straight. What was that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was special and, like to be honest, I don't remember the day MJ passed and that all went crazy on Twitter, but I do remember that year or year and a half at Twitter where the world really caught on. It was a quirky product. It was quirky people running it, the little bird was cute. It was a very simple product, but there was an aura of importance. We knew at that point that what we were doing was like sending shockwaves through the world and people were coming to Twitter to find out what's happening, what's going on and it it. So that combination of like quirky, fun, simple, coupled with like, what we're doing here is going to really make a difference, you know, on our planet and for the people and for these communities, um, um. And so it was a really special time to be there because, you know, that was a big moment, obviously. But at this point, twitter was starting to go global and we had, like you know, uprisings, the arab springs were happening.
Speaker 4:We had yeah, I was, I was gonna bring up the arab spring thing. Yeah, I mean, that was that's when I was like, oh shit, because remember, they had cut off communication yep, and that was the only there and then they were communicating with each other yeah, twitter, and like I was like, oh, this is okay, this is just not talking shit about basketball, that's right. That's when that's right.
Speaker 2:That's when, like traditional media, news outlets and journalists started coming on and really validating. This is a place to find out what's happening in real time. And you know to the point, earlier still today, big news breaks. I go to Twitter right then to see, like, what are people saying about it and, like you know, I'm a meta now and I use threads a lot, but, like, twitter still has that kind of a stranglehold on, like, what's happening right now. What do you need to know? It was a real special time to be at that company. I'll tell you, though, similar around then, the real special moment for me was the day that Snoop Dogg rolled into lunch at the Twitter offices, brought about as many people as worked for the company with him in his you know, in his crew we had just got some new offices and we had a little DJ deck like uh, you know, overlooking kind of the lunch tables and the cafeteria.
Speaker 2:And so Snoop brings his, his unreleased vinyl it was going to come out and start putting on some music. His whole crew starts rolling big fatties and passing them around. I'm telling you, this office is that I think there's maybe video on YouTube, so, but this office in San Francisco, I mean it was big office and it was hot box like you never seen security in the fire marshal shut the whole thing down. But after that Kanye rolled through and the president of Russia and presidents of the United States, and right after that it was just this never ending line of people that wanted to come to the office to see where is this all happening.
Speaker 2:It's funny because the office was just a bunch of nerds like me cranking on code and working on stuff. But the effect that product had through the world, man it was, it was meaningful. And I'll tell you just personally, and it's kind of hard to say, but I've been kind of craving that, like the dopamine of working for a place like that at a moment like that, ever since, you know, and then maybe that was just a special moment in time, lightning in a bottle. I'm not sure I'll ever recapture it, but I mean that was a real special time to be there.
Speaker 1:That's going to be hard to recapture. The negative side could be said, though, that Twitter did a lot of positive and changed the way we communicate, but it also changed media forever, in that we all looked at our local news, we all watched TV. There was always a certain way to get the news, and it was, I thought at least, a lot more unbiased at that point. With Twitter on there, it became open that anybody could basically talk about anything in any opinion, and in some ways facts didn't matter as much. So it is kind of a scary side too, because people are not going to remember how we used to get our news, and now it's changed forever A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I mean it's, it's, you know, the with with the pros come the cons, and not everything is is roses and, like I said, we back then, you know to, to my discredit, I wasn't thinking about ways in which this could be manipulated or used to manipulate people. Or, you know, terrorist organizations still to this day using Twitter to organize, to go kill people. I mean it's, it's, it's that literal and you know we weren't thinking about that um then. But also I still believe you know Twitter was a net positive.
Speaker 2:I think, like you, know, and I really believe, like and this is kind of, you know, channeling Rick Rubin, he always says like ideas are in, like, in the ether around you and you know, if you, if you have one, you should run with it. If you don't run with it, someone else may. And I think we've seen a lot of examples of like, even in, like, popular music over you know, the last century. Like sometimes, uh, you know, similar types of music will pop up in different kinds of the different parts of the world. Uh, that had no connection to each other, and so it's like I feel like if Twitter didn't happen, I think that idea would have, uh, would have likely happened. That said, you know, I wish we'd go back and put some protections in and, you know, do things a little bit differently, but maybe that would have squandered the deal.
Speaker 1:So it might have. It might've never got to where it was yeah.
Speaker 2:Comes to bat and and uh, you know I still, to this day at Meta, often talk about the lessons I learned at Twitter, just to make sure that like moving forward. You know, we get all excited about technology and like, with AI happening right now, we're in a real moment right now with technology, like let's just take a breath, slow down a little bit and make sure what we're doing. You know, let's think through all the ways in which this can go horribly wrong, which is a really hard mindset to employ when you're really excited about a new thing. But I've learned that that's the best way to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. So what made you leave then? So Evan Williams decides to leave. Do you go because you had just become such a fan and loved working with him, or what happened? What made you leave? Twitter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, me and Ev became pretty close friends, just kind of cut from a similar cloth and the things we were into. And he was, you know, he was an idol in my mind. You know little nerd from Texas and he'd done all these big things, he kind of making it happen out in Silicon Valley, and so um, of the Twitter founders him, jack and Biz me and Ev were definitely the closest and um, and he really I owe a lot of my career to him. He really saw some potential in this, this little Texas, and really put me on and really helped me show what I could do, and so it's a well-documented story. Now there's a book about it where he was outed for the company. He was the CEO. He actually when it first started they let Jack be the CEO, he was the engineer. But very early Ev was like hold on, I can't have my engineer running this company. So Ev kind of took the reins from him. And then Jack orchestrated a little bit of a coup and took the reins back from Ev. Ev became a CEO later and then Dick Costolo and like it was kind of this rotating cast. So by the time Ev left, I think the board was just kind of ready to turn the page fully. And Ev had got it to where it was, which at that point was a public company. And so Ev bounced and I remember the day he left. I said look, I know enough about you to know you ain't going to rest. And by this time he was a billionaire. He didn't have to do anything. But I was proven right. He went to Tahoe for a couple of months to try to be like a snowboard bum, but that wasn't working out all these ideas.
Speaker 2:And after Blogger and Odeo and Twitter, like, Ev is just fascinated and maybe even obsessed by this idea that, like, facilitating the exchange of ideas and stories in the world is one of the most important things that he can do and that's kind of his mission to bring in all these products. Kind of scratch a similar itch. So I knew he wasn't done. So I said, whatever you're doing next, like I'm with you, homie, let's go. And he wrote me back that day. He was like I got an idea. I remember his email. I got an idea. He said you want to rebuild the internet and that's all he said. And so I was reporting to the VP of engineering. I told him that day. I said this is my two week notice. I'm going to rock with Ev and he was like, what's Ev doing? I was like I don't know. But I doubted Ev. The first time, as I said earlier, when he asked me to move out there early at Twitter, I doubted him. And the second time I said I'm not. I'm with you on this ride.
Speaker 4:You learned your lesson.
Speaker 2:I learned my lesson A hundred percent.
Speaker 4:I respect that. I respect that, yes, sir.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So he left and I joined him and we restarted obvious corporation. Remember, I told you obvious one it was supposed to be like a holding, an umbrella company. Twitter was going to be one product of many. Well, now, post twitter ebbs a billionaire, he's got all this cachet. He's bringing along people like me and then some of the people they knew to kind of start something new. And so we started obvious corporation v2 and we just started opportunistically, bringing in smartest, most creative people we knew and just dorking around with different ideas and we built probably 10 or 11 different products. But the first one was what became Medium, the blogging platform, you know, and at the time, you know, we kind of joked in that Ev had done blogger, which was long form writing. They did Twitter, which was like short form writing, and it's like maybe there's something in the middle, and so we called it Medium, but also like the Medium is the message.
Speaker 1:I didn't know. That's where the name came from. That's dope, that's dope, that's dope, that's dope.
Speaker 2:Funny story about that. The other competing name was going to be Matter, mattercom, but the oh God, I'm drawing a stupid blank here Mark Cuban, ownmattercom. And so Ev pinged Mark and said hey, can I get this domain from you? I think it was going to sell, but it was going to be a time. We ended up falling in love with Medium anyway, and so we built a bunch of different products. Medium was kind of the first one, but then we thought we can't just launch another blogging platform. This has been done. So we spent about a year looking for different angles, different products, built a lot of different things. We kind of went back to that original idea and really felt like there was a need, partly because of what we launched with Twitter.
Speaker 2:To your point earlier how people consume news, ev uses an analogy that really resonated with me, and still does, which is like, anytime you're consuming anything, whether it's food or media, like you should have a healthy balance in your diet, you know. And so, like you know, I don't eat super healthy, but generally healthy, but also candy and ice cream, and I'll have a soda every once in a while. And like same with my media consumption, like I'm trying to, you know, be informed from uh uh, trustworthy, respectable, you know facts online and and doing all these things, but also still use Twitter and Instagram and so, like Twitter was kind of like the candy of the media. Consumption, you know, and like I think you know, in coordination with you know healthier things you ingest from the media, like it's probably fine. But when Twitter became that big it was like now all the media is like this, like candy. You know, all the media is like candy now.
Speaker 2:So we felt like we could potentially offset that a little bit by launching a platform that really incentivized deeper thought, more intellectual writing. You know, well-informed takes and you know, and just longer takes. You know it's easy to crank out 140 characters. It's not easy. I mean, some people have it's like an art. It could be an art Right now, but with Medium we really targeted who are the thought leaders in industry. How can we potentially change culture and change minds around the world? By letting people type and in a way that you didn't have to start your own blog and market yourself and brand yourself? And you could, that you didn't have to start your own blog and market yourself and brand yourself. You could write into this network that already had millions and millions of readers. And so even the business model.
Speaker 2:We said from the get-go we weren't going to be an advertising business model. I think the business model that big tech companies, including Twitter, employ today incentivize sensationalism and click-baity headlines. That's how they get their ad clicks and their money. So we said we're not going to do ads on Twitter, on Medium, sorry. So we played a couple different ideas. But right from the get-go we said we want this to be a place where people are going to come here and feel like they're getting the meat and potatoes of their digital diet, you know. And so and they just celebrated Medium just celebrated, I think, their 12 or 13 year anniversary. Medium to celebrate I think their 12 or 13 year anniversary. So, like man, that's, that's a that's forever in in tech. And you know, in tech, years um, and still going, still growing. They do have a business model. Now it's a profitable company as of this last quarter how do they make money?
Speaker 1:because I'm not sure right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a member, it's a membership, so for five dollars you're like unlimited membership.
Speaker 2:I think they're gonna to experiment with some different tiers of membership, different things, but right from the get-go we wanted to incentivize writers to write meaningful, impactful takes. And so, still today, you can go to Medium today and write an article you think is going to be good. You can put it behind the paywall if you want, and all the people that read you are going to get a little cut of that. You know, not that much different than, like you know, putting your music on Spotify, but you know, for for a different industry and man really proud of what what that became for sure.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was part one of our conversation with Sturman. Don't miss part two. All right, folks, that's our show. Tune in to Unglossy, the coding brand and culture, on Apple Podcasts, spotify or YouTube, and follow us on Instagram, at UnglossyPod, to join the conversation. Until next time, I'm Tom Frank.
Speaker 4:I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 3:Smicky that was good.
