Unglossy with Bun B
Unglossy is a raw dive into the cultural forces shaping identity, creativity, and influence today. Hosted by legendary rapper, professor and entrepreneur, Bun B, alongside music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge and brand and marketing guru, Tom Frank, this is a conversation about cultural impact.
Through real stories and unfiltered dialogue, Unglossy explores how artists, entrepreneurs, and visionaries define themselves, move culture, and build legacy beyond the gloss of hype and headlines.
Tune in to "Unglossy" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod and join the conversation.
Unglossy is produced and distributed by Merrick Studios. Let your story take the mic. Learn more at https://wearemerrickstudios.com
Unglossy with Bun B
Michael Ford: Blueprints, Beats, and Belonging
This week on Unglossy, Bun B, Tom Frank, and Jeffrey Sledge sit down with Michael Ford, The Hip Hop Architect—a designer using rhythm and rhyme to reshape skylines. From leading tThe Hip Hop Museum in the Bronx to launching the Hip Hop Architecture Camp, Ford proves design can be culture, not just construction.
He shares how rap lyrics inspire real-world spaces, why representation matters in architecture, and how collaborations with Kurtis Blow, Lupe Fiasco and Herman Miller, and turn creativity into community impact.
The crew dives into Virgil Abloh’s legacy, Lenny Kravitz’s world-building, and Ford’s next blueprint: a Hip Hop Museum of the South in Memphis.
🎙️ Tap in as they connect bars to blueprints, showing how hip hop doesn’t just shape culture—it designs the future. This is Unglossy.
"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Studio and hosted by Bun B, Tom Frank and Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to hear this thought-provoking discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/
Last week on Unglossy.
SPEAKER_04:He's taking no personal credit for it, you know, and instead he's thinking of, well, if we did that, we're doing this, maybe we should look into this as well. You know, you're doing God's work, my man. You're doing God's work. That's very kind.
SPEAKER_00:That's very kind. That's very, very kind. And I appreciate that. But you know what? Uh I always say that like we're all on the same planet going in the same direction. If we can align some dots, we can change everything.
SPEAKER_04:From the top.
SPEAKER_02:I'm Tom Frank.
SPEAKER_05:I'm Jeffrey Slick.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm Bud B. Welcome to Unglossy.
SPEAKER_02:Real stories, unfiltered dialogue, and the voices moving culture beyond the gloss, height, and headlines. So buckle up, Unglossy starts now. We are back for another Unglossy. We're on a roll here. We've had some very interesting people on this show talking about some very interesting things.
SPEAKER_04:And we've been able to be consistent too. Like we haven't had any like off weekends where we didn't have a uh, you know, a guest. Yeah. That we didn't have a schedule of conflict. Let me knock on the wood because I may have just You may have just uh jinxed us. Thank you. No, but uh but no man, things have been rolling smooth, these conversations haven't been going over very well. I think at this point we've probably each brought a guest to the table, and the other hosts have been able to be a part of the conversation in a very like natural way, like forcing their way into the conversation. And at this, I think that's because generally myself, Tom, and Jeff, we're naturally inquisitive people. Like we want to know things. Like we are learners in the in the current, you know, not kind of living off of the information that we've been given and just kind of always referring back to something, but having new points of connectivity with the culture right now. And I think that's what makes this show interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And we've dabbled in a couple different things from food to football.
SPEAKER_04:It's crazy. Like we've we're working the spectrum right now, I gotta say. We are working the spectrum.
SPEAKER_02:They all do have that central theme of culture. Yeah, and kind of and and guys that are kind of making a a significant impact on the way things are shaped, the way things are thought about, the way things are done. Yep. Which I think is very exciting.
SPEAKER_04:This one is very, very different because it doesn't intersect culture in them in the ways that we've kind of talked about it. Like we've been dealing with low-hanging fruit as far as culture is concerned. This one takes us on a bit of a turn, and I'm really interested to see this.
SPEAKER_02:That's a good segue because we got a very special guest today. Today, on Unglossy, we're joined by Michael Ford, also known as the hip hop architect. Michael's career lives at the intersection of design and culture, using his hip hop as a lens to rethink how cities are planned and how communities see themselves in the built environment. He's the founder of the hip hop architecture camp camp, which we need to get into because it's an amazing, amazing program. It's an award-winning program. He introduces unrepresented youth to design through the power of hip hop. He's also the lead architect, and this is what you were referring to, Jeffrey, of the hip hop museum in the Bronx and the founding principal of brand new design studio. His work has been featured everywhere, from Rolling Stone to the Today Show to ESPN. His TED Talk has challenged a generation to view architecture as culture, not just construction. And I love that phrase: culture, not just construction. An architect, educator, cultural innovator, reshaping the blueprint for the future. Welcome to Unglossy, Mr. Michael Ford. How are you, sir?
SPEAKER_06:Peace, peace, yo. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. Thanks for the intro. I needed to record that. I need to use that the next time I go. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I'm happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for having me on to have this conversation. So now where are you talking to us from? Because you recently moved, if I'm correct here, right? Yes, sir.
SPEAKER_06:I am now a Texan. So I still got my 313 number. I'm from Detroit. I ain't giving that 313 phone number up. But I'm I'm just outside of Dallas now. I'm in a city called Little Wales, just outside of Dallas. Welcome to the DFW. Okay. You got the ambassador of Texas on with you right now. Oh, yeah, that's what makes this call so excited, man. I uh it's great to be in Texas and to be speaking to uh the the governor, the real governor of Texas.
SPEAKER_05:How long you've been? If only I had the power, things would be a big difference. How long you've been in Dallas?
SPEAKER_06:So I've been here for about this would be three years. So I'm still new, man. Still using GPS going up there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And that's a big move, man. You were in Detroit forever, right? Yeah, man. Born and raised. And you know, but happy wife, happy life. So my wife wanted to move and uh say less. Yeah, go. I'm here.
SPEAKER_04:You gotta go. I love it.
SPEAKER_02:So we gotta start with kind of a foundation here. And Bun and I were talking about this when we first got on. Like, help me connect the dots here between hip hop and architecture. How did this where did this generate? How did this start?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so for me, man, this has been a conversation for the better part of two decades. Something I've been exploring since a college student. So growing up in Detroit, you know, you got a lot of I had a lot of friends who were trying to be rappers, some folks who made it. But also just growing up in the music city. I played a the trumpet when I was younger. My dad had a jazz band. And when I got to architecture school, this is where I started to link the two for me. I had one year to do a graduate thesis. I'm like, all right, I'm about to spend one year in grad school spending all this money. Let me make sure I don't bore myself. I got to pick my own topic for my thesis. And um I say, you know what? I'm gonna do skyscrapers that you can live in. You'll never have to come out of these skyscrapers. This was a new thing. This is 2004, 2005. So I'm gonna do the livable skyscraper, the building you come in and never leave out. I got bored with that shit in like two months. I'm like, you know, I need to change it. And um my friend made a bet. He's like, yo, why don't you just mix music and architecture? Like, see how music can encourage or can inspire architecture. So, you know what, I'm gonna do it. Uh I changed my thesis a couple months in, and uh, my thesis was titled Hip Hop Inspired Architecture. And what it was was, I mean, while we in the studio, we we design it, we got music in the background all day. Yeah. We listen to music, that's what keeps us going in the middle of the night as students. So I said, you know, I'm gonna take what's in the background, I'm gonna put it on paper now. I'm gonna not just have it playing while I design, I'm actually designed to the music. So it started off with me listening to tracks and saying, I'm gonna solve the issues that they're talking about in the music through architecture. So you got people that's rapping about their neighborhood, they block the buildings they live in, the house they live in, the school they go to. But they also are like imagining something different. Uh, they're talking about politics that's housed within these structures. So I say, you know what, how can architecture respond to this? So I would just start listening to music and designing shit that responded to the lyrics I was hearing. That was the the start about 20 years, and uh, you know, I've been building on it since then.
SPEAKER_02:Now, a side note, I know exactly what you're talking about here. I was an architecture major as well, and I can remember those long nights in the studio with music blasting, and I remember the days of that thesis too, because that that was rough. So I can appreciate that. And I and I I kind of like that you ended up switching yours and going into something that probably was a hell of a lot easier for you because it was kind of who you were.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, not just easier, you know, because I will say it's harsh. I'm still trying to answer the question 20 years from. That's why it's great to be on these podcasts and have these conversations. I want to hear y'all's feedback. But it wasn't so much easier, but I would say it was something more related to me. You know, when you're in college, you're always exploring the other, you know, especially in architecture school where only 2% of us, only only 2% of our architects in the United States are black. 2%. So you have a lot of situations where you're studying the so-called greats and none of them look like you. I say, you know what? I'm gonna take the biggest cultural innovators that we got, hip-hop artists, and I'm gonna see how I can study the way that they became these cultural icons. And can I model my career the same way? Like, not put my culture in the background. I'm gonna I'm gonna wear it on my chest, wear it on my sleeve. I'm gonna come in this space. There's only one person, I'm the only black person in the space. I'm gonna be unapologetically me. And um, so 20 years now in this game of talking about hip-hop and architecture, you know, it's been a blessing to work on projects like the hip-hop museum in the Bronx, because that brings it full circle from being something just like an academic exploration to now something I I really built my profession on and built uh a design firm on.
SPEAKER_02:Dive in a little deeper though, because I think I've heard you speak before that it it's it's bigger though than just tying music, right? There's a lot more kind of nuance there in terms of and and you probably explain it better than me, but the not only just the language patterns and and the pattern of hip-hop, but also kind of the stories behind it that really inspire the work that you do.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so and when we talk about hip-hop, well, when I talk about hip-hop, I'm looking at you know, all the elements of hip-hop. It's not just the MC, but I'm taking all the elements and seeing how that can inform the built environment. But some of the things that we do that's totally unique. Um, you know, I have young people come to the camp, the hip hop architecture camp. This is where I took all the stuff I did in grad school and some of my professional work, and I distilled it down to a program for kids. And I'm teaching kids about architecture, but in a very unique way. So I say, hey, who's your favorite MC? We'll print off some lyrics instead of listening to them. Let's print off the lyrics and see what they're talking about. And then we'll do things like highlight the rhyme cadences, the rhythms and the patterns and the music. We're highlighting them with markers, and we're trying to extract the textures from their favorite MC and then turn those into textures that you can actually touch and feel and walk through. So we'll build a whole city, you know, based on the rhythms and textures from MCs. And then we invite rappers to come to the hip-hop architecture camp. We've done it in about 42 cities across the country. Uh, we've done some in Kenya, uh out in Nairobi and Toronto. But we'll invite MCs to come and they'll see kids creating these cities. Like, oh, you know, that's pretty nice. I like the way you built this city, I like the density here. They'll get all architectural, especially if it's an architect coming. The architects will say, Hey, I like the density here and the amount of space that you have dedicated to skyscrapers, etc. But then my kids will tell you, nah, that's not a city I built at all. These Bumbi lyrics, I just turned it into a city. You know, where you have taller buildings are based on larger words you use. So if you look really look at what we can extract from hip-hop to use as tools for building and creating, it's a very unique and fun process. And then when our kids talk about it, I mean they look like geniuses. Like it's them, they have a style, they have an approach that is totally unique. So even if they one person in a room, they're the only young black person in that room talking about architecture, they story and approach is gonna blow away any and everybody else in that room. Absolutely, well.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. This is all fascinating to me. It's crazy. I want to go back a little bit, though. I want to go back a little bit. Like what sparked you to get into architecture as a kid? I wanna I want to hear what I what that's like. Yeah, so I grew up wanting to wanting to design cars. Happened.
SPEAKER_06:Growing up in Detroit, you know, cars was a thing. You know, so you grow up in your family, you got two, three cars. You you have a number of cars. Detroit was not about mass transit back then. It was, you know, you need a weekend car, you need a fun car, you need your work car. So for me, you know, cars was my life. My dad always had the rangity cars, so I was working on cars. He had the A to B cars, I learned how to change oil, do all that uh as a young dude. And uh I said, you know what, I'm gonna design cars. It flipped for me when I went to a summer program. I was maybe in fifth or sixth grade, and this is when I learned that a new car comes out every year. So it's not just this Mustang. Next year, another Mustang is gonna come out. And you might not design that one. And then right after that, another Mustang is gonna come out. And then I started to learn the price of new cars. Like, damn, if I design this car, my daddy ain't gonna be able to afford this for a long ass time. I know we always had the struggle, buggy. And I saw the price tag, and I'm thinking of this as a little kid. I'm talking to the teacher. She said, you know, you should think about architecture. And you can design a building, nobody has to purchase that building to experience it. It's not gonna be a new one in that space every year. So once you design something, it's permanent and hopefully it outlasts you. So now your parents don't have to buy that building to come and walk and experience what you designed. So that was the the switch that was flipped for me as a young kid. And um after that I had the blessing of going to a high school in Detroit called Cast Tech. We call it the greatest high school in the world. We had Donna Ross, um Big Sean, our once beloved mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Once beloved. Yeah, I mean, it's a great high school, but you you get to pick a curriculum or a major when you go into high school. You got people in performing arts, and they had an architecture program, so that's where I got deeper into architecture in high school and you know the rest was history.
SPEAKER_04:This is crazy how all this intersects because Okay, interesting. I've been thinking about this, you know, as I got the research materials and whatnot, and I look at the way that hip-hop has been expressed through so many different lenses. Initially it was very low-hanging fruit. If you look at the four pillars, it was hip-hop expressed through dancing, hip-hop expressed through music, hip-hop expressed through art form, hip-hop expressed through words. But as hip-hop as a culture grew, different things connected itself to hip hop and expressed itself. I've heard people talk about seeing hip hop in colors. And, you know, in their mind, like they register these things as colors. I've met chefs who expressed hip-hop through food. And I think to Virgil, who was on the cusp of trying to integrate hip-hop into architecture, and they literally had built a brand around architecture. Do you find that people are starting to look at different ways to express themselves and the culture in the way that the world can probably access a little easier than through the temporary expressions like music, culture? They may not understand the terminology, they may not understand the fashion of it. But do you think that this lends itself to people understanding and embracing hip hop at a more palatable level?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, man. And shout out to Virgil. Thanks for mentioning uh Virgil. You know, he he has a degree in architecture. A lot of people don't know that. Got a degree in mechanical engineering from University of Wisconsin. It's Madison. Um, Smart Brother gone too soon. Um, well, yeah, I totally agree. I say, you know, hip hop's what, 50 this year, 52? 52 history, 52 year history. The culture has explored every profession that you can imagine. But in a temporal state, you know, whether it was through lyricism, through music videos, there was always an exploration of other professions. But now, you know, as people have not checked the culture at the door, because a lot of times we'll say you want to become an architect, you want to become a chef, you want to become an engineer, you need to check that culture at the door, go into that space, assimilate, get your license. But now hear right facts, but now because I think people can recognize that we're standing on the shoulders of genres. Like a person like me, I'm 42. So hip-hop is older than me. I was born into the genre. It's been a lot of people who laid a foundation where I didn't have to check my culture at the door. I came in and it came in with it, and I think I still don't think it's as palatable as people might think. And I love that because a lot of people still don't understand hip-hop. They understand it at a surface level. So to really translate it and pull it into these other professions, it's us that's gonna have to do it. It's people who are the innovators, the OGs, or people that was really born into the culture that live eating shit hip-hop. Uh it's people who do it at a surface level that pervert it, take advantage of a look at it as a quick monetary game. But I think it's people out there like myself and some others who are really trying to, you know, use the culture to propel the young people who are again living and breathing it.
SPEAKER_05:So when you go to those those kind of spaces, like you said, you know, where where you know a lot of people are forced to assimilate, you know, before your generation, like what's the response when you walk in with like with this, with this, with this hip-hop energy? And you obviously you know your shit, so you you know your study, you you you know, they you're not you know, you have the the technical part of it down, but what how's the response when you come in also with the hip hop energy?
SPEAKER_06:Uh I'm gonna keep it real. So keep it real now. Keep it real. I was telling y'all when I I switched my thesis in grad school. This was the first reaction. So we like we we a few weeks or maybe into like that second month. And now we got to stand up as graduate students and tell all the undergraduate students what we researching for the year. So then that way they can come by, see what we're working on in the lab, they can peek in, they kind of know what we're working on. So my professor and advisor fully expected me to stand up and say, Yeah, I'm working on this livable skyscraper, you know, the building you'll never have. So when I stood up, I'm like, yo, my name is Michael Ford. My thesis is combining hip-hop and architecture. It was like, whoa, what the fuck? Like, where did this come from? This ain't what we've been working on. So that that initial reaction was abrasive, you know, even from the professor. But once we started getting into it, and I said, hey, architecture has always been influenced by other cultures. You go back throughout time, whether you're looking at cathedrals, looking at the pyramids, every style of architecture has been inspired by its culture. And I said the most consumed culture and the most recognizable culture today is hip-hop. So at first, academically, it was I don't know about it, but once I proved there's some academic validity here, uh everybody was all for it. But later on in the professional world, that's something different. It's like, you know, what the hell is this? And I I took the approach early on, like a Dr. Dre almost, you know, architecture is this real world where like you can't call yourself an architect until you get the degree, you take all the exams, and now you're an architect. You got your seal. So, and it takes a long time to do that. And um, you know, I say I'm gonna I want people to call me an architect. I'm in debt. I've been working for about five, six years out of school. I still can't call myself an architect yet. And all right, I'm gonna call myself the hip-hop architect. So that it was kind of like Dr. Dre. And I started taking like this hip-hop attitude, like, you know, Dre wasn't a doctor, but everybody called him Dr. Dre. You'll never call another person a doctor that's not a doctor. So I say, you know, how can I get people to start calling me an architect? Some people didn't like that. It's like a hip-hop architect, nah, he's trying to call himself an architect. But it became official when um I did a left keynote for our group. It's called the American Institute of Architects. I did a keynote there for our national conference. Michelle Obama was one of the other keynotes. So, I mean, it's a huge conference. Wow. It was Michelle Obama's first talk out of the White House. I'm one of the other uh keynotes there. And when they called me up and called me the hip-hop architect, at that time I still wasn't licensed. But they they introduced me in front of about 40,000 people in this room. They called me the hip-hop architect. Oh, my chest is off. That's awesome. You know, they they recognize in the work. You know, I I never put it down, I wasn't gonna give up on it. I mean, I'm licensed now. That's the law behind me, but it was accepted more academically than it was professionally.
SPEAKER_04:So when you started that makes sense. I'm sorry, guys. That makes sense because as I listen to you talk and I think of culture, because we're primarily talking about hip-hop culture, but I'm just thinking about culture in general and the intentionality of how venues were built for a specific purpose. The Carnegie Hall, Hollywood Bowl, even back to the theater and the globe back when Shakespeare was was producing plays. Like there were all these venues were built with the intention specifically to showcase opera, to showcase music, to showcase theater. We're now living in an age where you're building a venue with the specific intentionality of it representing culture. What has been the feedback from other architects in the space with you and that specific intentionality? Because out of every every other space that we've been able to, I've played Carnegie Hall. I'm I'm actually getting ready to play the bowl. I've played a lot of places that were not intended to showcase hip-hop. The beauty of your museum is that it's an express intention for it to facilitate and showcase hip-hop. When you put that out there, how are you received by other, I guess, guys that deal in office space or residential or real estate or that's at high-rises and whatnot?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, no, that that's a great, that's a great question because when I started my own firm and I said, hey, I'm I'm working on projects that are related to the culture. Those only projects I'm working on. I worked at some huge architecture firms. I stepped away and said, I gotta dedicate myself to the culture. And people say, hey, you won't survive like that. It's not enough work in hip-hop to build a firm. Hey, you don't know hip hop, man. You know, it's not just it's not what you hear on the radio. You got contractors, you got businessmen, you got entrepreneurs. Like the culture is well beyond the original elements. So architecturally, man, like people are like, you're not gonna survive. It's not gonna work. You don't have enough clients. Um, what conference do you go to where you can pick up a job with a hip-hop artist? It ain't no conference. I just gotta be out here. So when the hip hop museum came around, man, it happened. It was a blessing. I had moved from Detroit. I was living in Madison, Wisconsin.
SPEAKER_04:The most un-hip hop places in America.
SPEAKER_05:Man, so exactly like that.
SPEAKER_06:I'm like, you know, this hip-hop stuff is over in Madison. I'm like, it's probably not gonna happen. My wife was at the university, so again, happy wife, happy life. I'm there. And um, I ended up meeting Curtis Blow. Curtis Blow came to do a talk at the university, and he was talking about his dreams to build a hip-hop museum. He's like, you know, I gotta leave something behind that's more than the music. You know, what do we leave behind? And um a professor called me up, like, yo, Curtis Blow is up here talking about a hip hop museum. He said he don't have an architect. You might want to slide up here if you can. So luckily I answered my phone. Boom, jet up to the school. You ran right up there. Got up there, and uh Curtis Blow, they introduced us, like, hey, go Mike Floyd. You know, he spent his career exploring hip hop and architecture. I showed him stuff on the phone. Right there, he called some of his partners that was thinking about the museum, too. And uh it was it was it from there. I came on, I said I'm on a conference call with a few other folks. Their executive director, his name is Rocky Bucano. Rocky's a great dude.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna tell you a little bit about Rocky.
SPEAKER_06:I know Rocky.
SPEAKER_05:No Rocky Craig. No Rocky Craig. Oh, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_06:He conferenced, put me and Rocky on a call, and I'm like, yeah, I love to work on a project. They said, well, can you give us some sketches or some drawing so we can make a press release? Like, we want we're gonna do this museum. I'm like, hell no, there's no way that I'm gonna be the person who put out the image. I'm gonna be the single hand that touches this drawing and say, This is hip hop, this is the museum. So I wouldn't do it. So, Bun to your question, like, what was people's response uh in a profession? I made them love it. I was like, I'm gonna do a design charette and I'm gonna bring folks together. And then Curtis was like, you know, what's a charrette? So I was like, I didn't want the same thing. I didn't want to sound stupid and I literally was about to say, what's the design character? So I was like, you know, it's like a it's like a freestyle, it's like a battle. Like you're gonna come in and you just design it off the top of your head. You listen to conversation, you designing something, when we all working together, then we'll come up with a few images that we all like co-created, and then we'll put that out. So then the pressure ain't on one person, you know. Let's let's all co-author this thing. They'll say, yeah, don't ever say fucking charred again. Let's just say we call it.
SPEAKER_02:In real time, which I think is I didn't realize that's how it came to be. That's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, so we we called it design ciphers. That was the name. So we threw this big design cipher in a Bronx. So it was an abandoned building where we were going to do the museum at at first. It was the old Bronx County Courthouse. So Curtis and Rocky invited folks from hip hop and media and press. I invited like the top black architects from around the country. And we all sat shoulder to shoulder. So now all the architects are like, oh, hell yeah, right? Like, hey, I'm sitting here next to Curtis Blow sketches. Yeah, Roxanne Chante. It was it's a lot of folks. And it was the day that Prince passed away. That's why we definitely remember it because everybody's phone is going off and Prince passed away. So it made it more important to how do we tell our story? What legacy do we leave behind? But that's how it started, and I got people in the profession to love it because I invited them all to the table. And we all grew up on this culture. These are all of our icons, so I want to get them a little piece of that creation, too. And we'll be right back.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to Merrick Studios, where stories take the mic and culture comes alive.
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SPEAKER_01:Master the art of lyricism with Pendulum Mink, the first school for rap. Learn elite techniques through immersive lessons, real-world exercises, and guidance from hip hop icons. This is with MC sharpening skills and glow boldly on the mic. Ready to level up? Visit pendulummink.com and start your journey today.
SPEAKER_02:And now, back to the show. So, Jeffrey, I didn't realize that you had known Rocky for 30 plus years.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. We started in the music business pretty much around the same time. Rocky used to work at MCA Records. He was a promo guy. So I know him for that. I don't just because when I heard he was doing a museum, I was kind of because I had lost touch of him. He had left the business for a while. And I was like, oh, really? You know what I'm saying? But you know, Rocky's always cool. I was just like, cool, you know? And then um, you know, I kept gaining more and more momentum around the city, and they got, you know, some support from like the the Bronx, you know, councilman and stuff like that. I was like, shit, Rocky's turning, this is really going to happen. You know, this is a very good thing.
SPEAKER_02:I I had the opportunity to meet him in Rocky forever. Is it January or February? We we got a tour of what you've done so far. And kind of Rocky gave us a tour, and a lot of it is rough still, right? And I don't know how it's changed since then, but the way he described what was happening in each of the spaces was absolutely amazing. Like if you closed your eyes the way he described it, you could picture it perfectly. And the setup of how it is now with the giant uh prints and the windows, and just from the outside, it it looks unbelievable. Like I can't wait to see where you go with this and how it comes to life.
SPEAKER_04:I love that this paints a very cool picture for kids looking to go into STEM and showing that you don't have to be separate from the culture in any way to pursue a future in STEM. As a matter of fact, you can actually incorporate the culture into your trade. I think that just sends a really good message to kids of color as well.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and and I I talk a lot when I'm with young folks at my camp. So yeah, we run these camps totally free. I'll get some sponsors locally to put something together, uh, you know, get pay for travel, pay for materials. But what I tell the young folks at these programs is every industry is copying you. You are the source of innovation. When we was wearing baggy jeans, hey, Levi's gonna come out with the baggage jeans fitness. You know, we We're wearing our big brother, big sister jeans. They look too big, but we're gonna rock them so so hard that you don't even want to wear your fitted jeans no more. So, you know, if we start modifying our cars, right? The auto industry is following us. Um Dapper Dam, and you start biting Gucci so hard, and Gucci's like, yeah, we just gotta bring you in. So we are the source of innovation. So I'm trying to, if they go into different STEM fields, whether it's architecture or engineering, I want them again to not leave that innovation behind. Bring it. Whether it's the way you walk, the way you talk, people are fascinated by you. They're gonna tell you, don't talk like that, don't walk like that. As soon as you stop doing it, boom, they go to commercial with all that style they have you stop doing. So I'm like, yo, let's let's bring it in. And I also tell them somebody has designed every part of your day for you. From the moment you wake up and put on your house shoes, or you put on your hoodie, your hat, your watch. Even when you sit and eat dinner or sit and eat breakfast, the bed you sleep in, somebody's thought about how the sun is gonna hit your face in the morning. Our world is being designed and created by folks. And it's not a lot of us, or I should say enough of us that's in those design, design careers. So I'm getting them to come in and think about us, put us in the forefront of those design explorations.
SPEAKER_04:That's crazy that that's the kind of conversations that you guys have amongst yourselves as designers, that you can actually realize that every facet of our daily lives has in some form or fashion been marketed to us and curated to us to make it seem as if it's our idea, too. That's just crazy. Yeah, somebody's thought about everything that you've done.
SPEAKER_06:It's just a wild thing. They thought about it far before you've done it.
SPEAKER_05:And back to back to Virgil, like that's what was one of the genius things about him. You know, Bun too. It's like he got in and he started designing stuff for IKEA, and he started designing cars, and he started designing watches, and so he was thinking that. Like, I can design stuff that people use every day in their everyday lives, a rug, you know, placemats or whatever. Just he would he wasn't just it wasn't just about clothes, it was like a whole life of building a world, basically.
SPEAKER_04:Building a world that allows you to be immersed in culture, right? Because you got the clothing, you got the shoes, you got but now you got the home, right? The home goods, where you're waking up in the morning looking at the virtual clock, you know, sitting on the dirt virtual day bed at the virtual desk, like all of these things, and you're immersed in his vision of what you your day should look and feel like. And because it's steeped in culture, those of us that are steeped in culture are immediately receptive. That's crazy. Just reframe this whole idea by day for me now. I'm kind of mind-blowing.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and it's you know, it's in the genius behind I think this idea of like getting kids to explore it, if if I can call it genius, because it's not me or it's really the young kids connecting with the artistry that they love. So again, I can imagine, which we haven't done one in Houston yet, we gotta make this happen. When the genius is already in our lyrics, like hip-hop is talking about every topic, whether it's environmental injustices, and I not only talked about it, but also like floated ideas for solutions. The issue is that we spent a lot of time dancing to that music or bobbing our head to the music. Like, you know, let's really slow it down. Let's print, let's print off some of this stuff that people are imagining through lyricism and let's create it. Like, what's the image? Like the music video is really about selling the song. So it creates visuals, but a lot of times the visuals are again tied to the story that's being told. But now this is like the next, like architecture is that next step. It's now not just giving the visuals to a story that's being told, it's it's responding to those and trying to solve some of the issues or not just solve, but help respond to some of the issues that are being told through the music. So when my colleagues that are that don't look like us, you know, the the other 98% of architecture, um, you know, they criticize it saying, hey, you know, this is not a true genre, you know, it's not Renaissance or Baroque or modern. Like, what is hip-hop architecture? I'm like, yeah, whatever. They say the music is too abrasive. The the graffiti, you know, it's vigilante, if you will. What I tell them all the time is if you don't like, especially the music, if you don't like the music, design better communities. Because if you design better communities, there'd be less things for us to rap about. Because when we're rapping, we're not critiquing the creations of people who look like me. We're critiquing all of the urban designers, politicians, and architects that don't look like us. So that's my TED talk is all about, is about like hip-hop as this critique of architecture and urban design. And it's the critique is there. And I say I had to give it a interested name just so the TED people, TEDx folks will call me back. Um, they're looking at hundreds of proposals. So I said, hip-hop is the post-occupancy evaluation of modernism. So I just wanted to say, what the fuck is he talking about? Sounds very, very good. Sounds intriguing. So I was like, you know, for it wasn't that 50 years just yet, but I said for decades, hip-hop has just been critiquing the space. And uh I want to highlight those critiques and then give an alleyutte for our next generation of architects and designers to be that much greater than what we've had so far.
SPEAKER_04:I'm I'm looking at everything that you're talking about now. So I'm thinking of design now, right? And culture. And I look I've I've been to a couple of different hotels, right, around the country and around the world where they design certain suites that are geared towards certain people, right? So, say for example, you have someone that is not of the culture trying to discern a hotel suite for someone that they think is a hip hop aficionado. And then you take that same room and have it designed by someone that's of the culture. And you could do that with country music, you could do that with jazz, right? There's this outside perception of what we think the the world is that these people live in until someone from that world actually shows you. And I think the first person I can think of is Lenny Kravitz, right? Lenny Kravitz was doing a lot of interior decorating, specifically from hotels, right? If I'm not mistaken, it was the SLS that he was designing for. And the reason people were receptive to it is because Lenny Kravitz is the type of person that would typically stay at a very high-end hotel, right? Depending on how it was designed, like the artwork, the architecture, the way the lobby was spaced out, all of these different things. And he realized, you know what, whoever designed this doesn't stay at these things, right? They're designing this space for people that they think they understand. And Lady was like, no, I know exactly what people want when they walk into these spaces. And went in and designed them, if I'm not mistaken, the property in Miami, and then was asked to do a couple of other properties. And it just shows you that there's a perception of what people think they understand from a very surface level, and then what people know they understand from the hip-hop level. We see everything marketed with a hip-hop aesthetic, you know what I'm saying? From breakdancing bumblebees to rapping gerbils and all of this type of stuff. And it makes for it makes for cute things that we all kind of look at and be like, that's that's weird, that's that's kind of crazy. But then you look at someone like Russell Simmons and Rush advertising, where it was a lot more subtle and a lot more family oriented because he understood that hip hop culture, you know, there's parents in hip-hop culture, there's children, there's grandparents, they're families. We think like every other family. You know, we might dress a little cooler, but we have the same core values in hand. And I think we're seeing a lot more of that now in modernism where guys could be like, you know what, let's let's do an EDM room and let Diplo design that, right? Let's do a goth room and let Korn design that or Marilyn Manton or someone. Instead of trying to guess the culture, more and more people are actually giving the culture space to create. And I think that's the beauty of how we are so easily receptive to hip-hop, to the hip hop museum, is because the idea comes from the culture, the funding comes from the culture, the leadership comes from the culture, and it's all again, I keep going back to intentionality because I understand how much of that like dictates design, right?
SPEAKER_06:Right. Yeah, you're totally right. You know, shout out to Lindney Kravis, too. He also got a brand with Creighton Barrel. He designed like total room, you know, from rugs, dressers, everything that you would need for space. Um, but yeah, Lenny Kravis is dope. But you know, one of the things that I did, Bun, too, with designing products. So I have a rug line that I designed with a company called Shaw Contractor based out of Atlanta. If you've been in any airport, I think they they probably have their carpet and rugs in like every airport across the country. It's a huge brand, they got a huge market share. But connected with them, and I say, you know, I can design a product, but how is this benefiting the culture? What's the benefit? So when I sit at that table, I say, okay, I can design five rugs, one for each element of the culture. It's gonna come out during the 50th anniversary of hip hop, but for every rug that's sold, I want you to give a percentage of those profits to the hip-hop architecture camp. So now I can go to cities. I don't have to ask people for donations. I want to be able to go to any city anywhere, run my program. But then we also give scholarships away because we've been doing a program for 10 years now, next year it'd be our 10-year anniversary. So I got kids who came in as shorties that now they're going to school to, they're going to college to study some type of design field. So I got them excited about it. I need to support them more. So now we give scholarships, but it's all from the sale of these rugs. And then it helps other designers now. So you're designing a building, whether it's an office building, restaurant, hotel, you can specify this rug to be a part of your project. So now they are also helping the hip hop architecture camp. So I've done that. That's just cool. How do you benefit the culture? So, yeah, you see the dance and gerbils, but yeah, you're selling more key as so now, but what does that do for everybody? So that's what I've done with all my brand collaborations. Like I have them give to the nonprofit so that we can you know encourage young folks to design too.
SPEAKER_02:And you've done quite a few. I know the first time I met you, it was the chair with um remind me of the brand that you did that with.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, it's a company called Herman Miller. Herman Miller, that's right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, and you know, the the carpet rug, me and Lupe, uh me and Lupe did a talk when we launched the brand. So we did a talk in Chicago. It debuted the line in Chicago, and it won like the best flooring product of the year, won like all these national awards that you know that come out for interior designers and products. The chair product, so this was not long after George Floyd was murdered, and uh I did a collaboration with this furniture company called Herman Miller. They got this lounge chair, man. It's you've seen it a lot, but if you're not in the design world, you probably never know what the chair is called. But it is it's uh it's called the Eames Chair. The chair is like six grand, it's a chair in the office. Wow. This mid-century modern piece of like it's more of a piece of art than it is a chair. So um I met them and they were like, hey, how can we help your message? You know, you want to make people. I was doing a mural for George Floyd at the time where I painted one tick mark for every second that Officer Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd's neck. So I just painted one tick mark for every second. And it was uh a performative piece, so it was time-lapse, it was filmed. And this chick came and like crossed all of my shit out. She just, after the mural was made, she came and X'd all the tick marks out. So that it became a uh a story on the news, and this company, Herman Miller, seemed to say, How can we help? I was like, hey, give me your most expensive chair. I want to do a mural on it. And then I want you to put it on your website so that every architect and your designer can see it. And uh, I wrote the names of victims of racial violence throughout America's history on this chair. Um it's a dope piece. And then um, you know, we did a couple of talks. We shipped a chair around the country to have conversations with people about certain names on the chair, including my little brother, brother-in-law in Detroit. He was murdered by Detroit PD. Um then we we sold the chair and uh donated it to an organization that um they're architects and they help people that go through uh you know situations with racial violence where they got to up and move real quick. They might be handicapped now or can't walk. They need a house that's ADA accessible, but they had to move so quick because of all the heat, the national attention, they didn't buy a house that was accessible. So this group goes around and helps those homes become more accessible, building ramps or doing interior renovations. So a lot of my collabs are all about giving back to the culture and like advancing design for us in some way, not just selling a product.
SPEAKER_04:It's amazing. I want to talk about functionality. The more you talk, the more, the more I think about these things. Specifically architecture. You've talked about designing an aim chair. Why do we not commonly associate furniture design with architecture? Why does the general public look at architecture as just buildings and structures?
SPEAKER_06:Man, that's our fault. That's as a profession. And it's why I made the hip hop architecture count. Because they say, hey, more people should be architects. Like, yeah, but when you're growing up, how many shows on TV do you see about architecture?
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_06:When you watch Sesame Street, is there an architect on it? When the last time you seen a movie and the character was an architect. You had well like that was it. That's the only movie I have seen. And when do they look like us? You got like Wesley Snipes and Jungle Fever. Was he an architect? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I didn't realize that.
SPEAKER_06:And so the answer to like why do we only think about buildings is because the profession is not out there enough through popular culture so that people can really understand what architecture is. It's still mystique. It's like, oh, y'all guys are good at math and you're the great drawers. It's like, and people also think that it's one man or one woman that designs everything. Like we got whole teams. And we don't just design buildings, like our skills translate. So you have architects who don't design any buildings, no homes. It's people who work on movies. Like a lot of people worked on the movie Star Wars. Like these were former architects that were designing these virtual worlds doing computer graphics and animation, set design. So people were designing stages. So architecture allows us to go into different worlds, but the general public don't tap us for those things because our profession is still mystique. It's still, I shouldn't say mystique, it's still mysterious. And that's what I'm trying to break with like hip-hop architecture, showing that we're more than just buildings and houses. We we have very conscious ways to approach how we design, what we design, and we can do more than just buildings. We can design cutlery, we can design clothes, uh you name it, but we can do it.
SPEAKER_04:That's what you and Virgil were trying to do. That's what you're trying to do now, and what Virgil was doing then, is to expand minds of children of color to redefine what we've been told these things are, so you can understand that there's an entry point for you in these spaces. You know what I'm saying? This is crazy. I I've realized now I've had no idea of what architecture is and what an architect is. And I'm 52 years old. Thank God you're doing this for children.
SPEAKER_06:And we got we got some adult programs too that we got to run about. Sign me up. But and I think those are essential because you know, the three of you, I can imagine sitting with y'all. And, you know, we've done it with artists in the past. Like I've taken artists to San Francisco and we've done these design ciphers at you know, some of these tech places where we had all the resources we need to create anything that we could dream of.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And um, but the true innovation comes when we bring people that are part of the culture that that really live off of the culture, that again are the innovators and creators. When we sit at the table with y'all, you know, instead of giving you a pen or a pencil or computer mouse and saying, hey, I want you to make architecture now, it's like, no, how can I use your voice, your lyricism? How can that influence how things are shaped and made? How can we take an MPC machine and you know, thinking about some of our greatest producers and say, can we rewire this? And now the input that you have for this MPC, if you make a great beat, can we now turn that great beat and that rhythm, that pattern into patterns that we see on walls or patterns we see in our neighborhoods, in our cities?
SPEAKER_04:Waves.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly. And it's it's something from I learned about this from watching for Rail. He was on a uh Oprah show, and he's like, he's talking about I think it's called synesthetia.
SPEAKER_05:Mm-hmm. You see you see you see colors and stuff.
SPEAKER_06:That's what I was alluding to earlier, how certainly register things. Yeah, so I'm like, so if you can see color when you hear music notes, like what else could we explore? Like, there's this, there's a tangible relationship between music and color. Like, can we start to identify space through sound? Right? And if you love this sound, can you make a dope ass space? So if I'm sitting down with Bun, I'm like, again, I don't want you to take a pencil or computer mouse. Use the sound we already love. You know, can we get some producers in a room? And how can we, again, remix the way we approach architecture with the way that the culture has produced, danced, produced music. So that's what this exploration is all about. And I'm glad the hip hop museum is going to be like the first piece that really shows all the elements coming together into a built space. What's what's the timing on that? Are you allowed to say? Oh, yeah, I'm allowed to say. It's been a marathon. It's been 10 years in the making. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Starting in 2016, that's when I met Curtis and Rocky. Yep. Um, the original open date was going to be August 11th of 2023, which would have been the 50th anniversary of hip hop.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:But as soon as the pandemic happened, boom, we know we were at least pushed back by another year. But um we're gonna open in August of 2026. Um we got to get y'all there to come do a walkthrough. Tom, if you was absolutely January.
SPEAKER_02:I would have been there in January. I'm sure it's completely different.
SPEAKER_06:Totally different. I mean, walls are up now. Wow. Um it's just a completely different space. So you walk through, you can use less of your imagination. You can literally see see this thing coming together now.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, we need to do that. But we're gonna do it.
SPEAKER_05:It's a trip to it. You know, I should be I used to be in that area all the time because to go to the shopping center over there. And I used to go there to home Japan. You know, look at this museum of walk out Jeff's blocks.
SPEAKER_04:Walked out Jeff goes.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying? So the but so to see the development of it is like, damn, it's like, you know, it's it's amazing to see what what they what they built. I went to a they had a pop-up, maybe a down the street about this.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's still there, right?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was that was dope too. Because this kind of see that little pop-up, some of the stuff they had in the pop-up was like mind-blowing. Like, you know, Grandmaster Caz's notebook and like stuff like that. So like the I can't imagine what's gonna be in the actual museum.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah, the pop-up right across the street. But yeah, but this is a 50,000, this is a 50,000 square foot, you know, two stories. Um, and what I love about you know, what Rocky and everybody on the museum team did, they were also thinking about what they give back. So on top of the museum, it's like 520 some odd uh apartments, you know, uh 100% affordable. So they team with a developer who did all the housing, they're doing a museum on the bottom two floors, and uh yeah, and I got a shout-out to my team too, because again, people think, oh, Mike, the hip hop architect, I got a dope team of folks helping me. I'm I partnered with a firm called Gensler. Oh, yeah. And the Gensler, they're one of the largest firms in the country. Um, so a team with their New York office to help bring this project to life. So I worked on a project about eight years solo dolo. And once we got all the funding in place, um, you know, I brought on a bigger muscle to help uh you know bring this project to reality. And then all the exhibits are being designed by a team called Ralph Applebaum Associates. Um it's a big team effort. You know, I'm out talking about it a lot, but it's 40, 50 people that's on the design team that's bringing this thing to life.
SPEAKER_02:So, Michael, I know you got to run here shortly, but I wanted to try something out with you. We got we got a lightning, lightning round, five questions.
SPEAKER_06:Oh man.
SPEAKER_02:All right, just whatever comes into your mind first. All right. Number one hip-hop album that best represents your design philosophy. I'm gonna go with black on both sides.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, sir. What made you pick that?
SPEAKER_06:Uh well, one, I mean, he has a song where he's doing an intro where he says, you know, hip-hop is wherever we at. If we good, yeah, hip-hop is good. So wherever we go, that's where hip-hop is going. But then he also has a few tracks like New World, Water. Uh, you know, I did a water project with Lupe Fiasco and Kenya. Like, I mean, that that whole album is prophetic. And when you think about it, like math, uh, he's talking about topics that are palatable for young folks that's trying to go into design. Like he's talking about stuff that again perfectly aligns with making uh a great architect or designer.
SPEAKER_02:Number two, most inspiring building or landmark you've ever visited.
SPEAKER_06:I'll say it's the uh the National Museum of African-American History and Culture in DC. DC, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was hoping, I was hoping you was gonna say that I was like, this dude, but yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, I was blessed to give a talk there and I had a chance to walk it while it was closed. Uh me and about a hundred other people, like a real small group.
SPEAKER_02:Number three, you recently moved to Texas three years ago. But if Dallas were a building type, what would it be? That Dallas is a whole new unique culture in itself.
SPEAKER_06:I don't know. It'd be some big ass building with a whole lot of corridors. I learned that driving in DFW is crazy. I mean, everything is 45 minutes away. So I don't know. This is this is the longest building in the world with the most hallways. And I gotta see what that building is.
SPEAKER_02:Fair enough. Number four, you your your dream collaboration. Architect, musician, dead or alive.
SPEAKER_06:Ooh. Well, I would say they have to be with a number of MCs. I would say right now, since I'm in Texas, I've been thinking about this a lot. Uh, Bun, yourself, with Travis Scott. Uh, because you know, Travis Scott said he wanted to be an architect. He wants he wants to explore architecture. I think that'll be a good collab to design something. You know, maybe that's the next trail burger.
SPEAKER_04:I'm open to that. That would be interesting. Um I am open to that. I never thought about that. Obviously, I have to hire an architect every time we build out the inside and decide where we're gonna put the soda machines and all this type of stuff, but we could put a little bit more thought into it.
SPEAKER_02:Take it to a whole another level.
SPEAKER_04:Well, think about how people experience the space. I've I've tried to let culture be the undertone to try to lead with the food. So, like you, you know, you pay for the food, but you kind of get the culture for free, type of thing. So, but uh, I would love to see how Travis would allocate space for something like that. That'll be interesting.
SPEAKER_02:And then last thing, what's the future hold? What's next? I know you've still got a lot to work, a lot of work to do in the hip hop museum, but what what's next? What can you what can you give us a sneak peek of? Uh, what's next, man?
SPEAKER_06:I I'm working in Memphis.
SPEAKER_02:Ah, that's right.
SPEAKER_06:So the city of Memphis and Shelby County, they've commissioned a team that I'm on uh as the architect to design a hip hop museum of the South. So, I mean, this is early, early in the discussions. But um, you know, Memphis is known for celebrating its music history. Um, and they want to design and create a hip-hop museum, but one that's totally dedicated to the story of the South. So yeah. We've been working on it for about a year now, doing some community engagement, about to start reaching out to artists, doing some more uh discussions about how do we tell this story in the South. But that's that's my next project. And what I love about it is this one is being funded by the county and the city thus far. Wow. They see the importance of it. That's dope.
SPEAKER_02:So let me introduce you to the to the to the hip-hop artist of the south right here.
SPEAKER_04:Hey, look, I could be biased, but this sounds like a brilliant idea.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, I gotta show you. You you all over our board. We got a board mapping out the the south of hip-hop. The hip-hop of the south, man, looks like a crazy crime scene. Now we got like people connected to each other, like what's the story to tell? How do we connect different states, different cities? But yeah, we definitely gotta we'd love to bring you on. And right now we're talking about again what the stories are, what memorabilia is out there, because a lot of other museums have you know purchased or they own our history. So, how do we create spaces and keep things that are relevant to our culture to us? So amen. Yeah, so we got to catch up. You know, and if Memphis, if Memphis don't pull it off, you know, Houston, hey, I'm saying Houston can.
SPEAKER_04:I'll leave that charge all day. All day.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you, sir. It is an absolute pleasure to catch back up with you, and and we got to continue to talk now that we got you know this museum that Bun's got to be in.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, sign me up for the South Museum. And if you need anything in the Bronx, let me know because we're coming. We're coming.
SPEAKER_02:All right.
SPEAKER_06:Well, great to meet y'all. Great catching up with you again, Tom, and I'm looking forward to walking y'all through the Bronx.
SPEAKER_02:Can't wait.
SPEAKER_05:Can't wait to see it. And wait, can't wait.
SPEAKER_02:This is Michael Ford, the hip hop architect. Listener, follow the show on Instagram at UnglossyPod, subscribe to Ungloss on Apple, Spotify, or if you listen to the podcast, leave us a comment on Instagram, spread the word. Until next time, I'm talking friends. I'm Jeff Slay, and I'm Bunny.
SPEAKER_04:This is Unglossy.
SPEAKER_02:Unglossy, please,
